Commercial Use of Librivox Recordings

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tovarisch
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Post by tovarisch » July 7th, 2018, 1:46 pm

miketheauctioneer (emphasis mine) wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 10:28 am
....I don't mind putting work on Libravox as long as it remains my property that I can also sell. ...
Sorry, Mike, you can't do that. As soon as you put it on LibriVox, it ceases to be your property. You, just like anybody else, can sell it, of course. I also can sell it, and Peter, and Ahmed, and Vladimir, and ....
tovarisch
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miketheauctioneer
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Post by miketheauctioneer » July 7th, 2018, 3:14 pm

I am aware that all Libravox recordings are in the public domain, and I don't have a problem with that. I'm only suggesting permission to put watermarks on my work so the recording isn't prone to being sold.
Mike Vendetti
Audio Book Publisher, Auctioneer, Narrator
http://www.mikevendetti.com
Florence, CO USA

tovarisch
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Post by tovarisch » July 7th, 2018, 3:35 pm

What would prevent those from being sold? They edit out LibriVox disclaimer, what would prevent them from editing out the watermark?
tovarisch
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annise
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Post by annise » July 7th, 2018, 4:12 pm

tovarisch wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 3:35 pm
What would prevent those from being sold? They edit out LibriVox disclaimer, what would prevent them from editing out the watermark?
You've made your point of view quite clear, and Mike's been a member for a long time and probably knows more about PD than either you or me because of his work, He's made a suggestion , let's see other views than yours and mine .

Anne

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Post by Elizabby » July 7th, 2018, 4:46 pm

miketheauctioneer wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 3:14 pm
I am aware that all Libravox recordings are in the public domain, and I don't have a problem with that. I'm only suggesting permission to put watermarks on my work so the recording isn't prone to being sold.
I've had a listen to the watermark you made - thanks for uploading that - but I have to agree with Anne that it sounds like an error in the recording. Perhaps the idea of a female voice for a male narrator (and vice versa) would work better?

Here's my voice if you want to give it a try: https://librivox.org/uploads/xx-nonproject/LVwatermark.mp3

I wonder about adding another version of the LV disclaimer in the middle of the text? That would be annoying, and not impossible to edit out, but at least is obviously there on purpose!
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miketheauctioneer
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Post by miketheauctioneer » July 8th, 2018, 10:58 am

Elizabby wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 4:46 pm
miketheauctioneer wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 3:14 pm
I am aware that all Libravox recordings are in the public domain, and I don't have a problem with that. I'm only suggesting permission to put watermarks on my work so the recording isn't prone to being sold.
I've had a listen to the watermark you made - thanks for uploading that - but I have to agree with Anne that it sounds like an error in the recording. Perhaps the idea of a female voice for a male narrator (and vice versa) would work better?

Here's my voice if you want to give it a try: https://librivox.org/uploads/xx-nonproject/LVwatermark.mp3

I wonder about adding another version of the LV disclaimer in the middle of the text? That would be annoying, and not impossible to edit out, but at least is obviously there on purpose!
I don't believe adding another disclaimer in the middle would deter a determined pirate, since they stand to make quite a bit of money on some recordings, and as long as the disclaimer is separate from the text, it is easy to edit out. This however works! https://soundcloud.com/user-892733828/benjamin-button-mixdown. It would require a skilled engineer to remove your voice from the recording, and the recording; although still very listenable, has now becomes commercially un usable. This I think is a win/win because if Libravox were to allow this option, more professional narrators would contribute high quality audio books. Several of us appreciate what Libravox does, we just don't want to see our work prostituted by greedy opportunists.
Mike Vendetti
Audio Book Publisher, Auctioneer, Narrator
http://www.mikevendetti.com
Florence, CO USA

bobgon55
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Post by bobgon55 » July 8th, 2018, 2:46 pm

As I understand it, the fact that the scavengers ALTER the file is what allows them to copyright it. Slowing down the speed, adding music and sound effects, tweaking it in some minor way. The original, untouched file cannot be copyrighted. Nevertheless, minor tweaks ...

I do still think that moving to a CC license would stop or seriously slow the scavengers down. Of course, it would not be scrupulously police and certain no legal action would be taken, but I think it would deter all but the worst offenders.

Barring that, if allowing watermarks are being considered, I think allowing the addition of music and sound effects underneath could be a form of watermarking less distracting. And perhaps only for a small, but important, patch of audio. Something like ocean waves, rain, bubbling brooks, or any uneven white noise. Just something not removable, still listenable, but definitely an obstacle for scavengers.

But I still think moving to CC License. -- attribution, non-commercial, non-derivative (or allow derivatives as long as not sold) is the best, and simplest, solution.
Bob Gonzalez
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Post by TriciaG » July 8th, 2018, 3:41 pm

I do not see a CC license happening.

It philosophically changes LV at its core. Also...

Our LV disclaimers say, "All LV recordings are in the public domain."
Would we have to change the disclaimers on existing files? This would be a gargantuan undertaking. But if we don't, they're wrong - all LV would NOT be in the PD.
If we only changed it in future, what would we say instead?

The files are set to CC0 (PD) on Archive.
Would we have to change that on existing projects? That work would all fall on the admins.
On the technical end, it would require a re-write of the script sending projects to Archive. I don't know how complicated that would be.

There are probably other considerations as well.

So no, I do not see a CC license happening.
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GrayHouse
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Post by GrayHouse » July 8th, 2018, 5:50 pm

Mike,
I don't call myself a 'skilled engineer' but I had a go at trying to remove the watermark. This is what I managed in about 10 or 15 minutes:
- https://librivox.org/uploads/xx-nonproject/Benjamin_button_watermark_removal.mp3

It's not perfect, but the watermarking can certainly be reduced to the level of something that sounds like a recording error. Note: I didn't use Elizabby's watermark sample in the removal, only the sample that you watermarked, so it's an 'honest' test of the process.

Given the potential rewards, I suspect that people would be prepared to go to some effort.

I'm not sure if that adds anything to the debate...

-Ian

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Post by linny » July 10th, 2018, 9:11 am

When I bother to look to see if our work is available at a paid location I add a 1 star review (or question to seller if I can’t review) and state that the same audio is available for free here at LV. It’s sad and frustrating but buyer beware. The more we can do to advertise LV the more awareness and options we offer to society.

I enjoy the work I do here and honestly give very little thought to what happens to the end product once the project is cataloged.

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Post by Carolin » July 10th, 2018, 9:54 am

i personally was really shocked when i saw one of my books on audible, and i had a very unpleasant exchange with their customer service when i contacted them. i see how some of our readers would toy with the idea of quitting after such an experience.

but i also manned the thank you notes email address for a few years and i was in touch with our listeners every day. i read for them. if someone else manages to make a buck off it thats fine as long as our own listeners can still access our library for free on our site.
Carolin

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Post by chocoholic » July 13th, 2018, 1:15 pm

I don't like the idea of adding another sound to a recording AT ALL. I listened to one of the watermarked files and really couldn't stand hearing words on top of words. It sounded like a mistake and was very off-putting.
Laurie Anne

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Post by Elizabby » July 13th, 2018, 4:31 pm

annise wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 11:32 pm
If anyone does add bits to recordings please leave me your email address and I'll forward all the error reports and complaints I get for you to answer.
All right. If the concern is more admin work, I'm willing to help with that. If that's what it takes to make this happen, I'm willing to help staff the incoming LV emails and sort and answer them. I don't have any special technical ability, so I won't be able to do anything about true error reports, but I can answer enquiries that only require an explanation!

And of course I expect that the watermark would only be an option, not compulsory, and would probably only end up on a small number of projects as I think the majority of soloists and BCs wouldn't do it (for a variety of reasons).

But I think a watermark is a great option for people who want it - some of whom would otherwise not record for LV at all. This option keeps people at LV, helping with the ultimate aim of LV to make more audiobooks! :9:
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tovarisch
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Post by tovarisch » July 13th, 2018, 4:58 pm

I am actually with Laurie Anne on this.

If I (as a listener) encounter noise like that "watermark", I will likely refrain listening to that narrator in the future. Off-putting is the right word!

I believe the Russian expression about this is "a spoonful of pitch in a barrel of honey".
tovarisch
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    to PLers: do correct my pronunciation please

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Post by TriciaG » July 13th, 2018, 5:45 pm

Definitely don't do a watermark on recordings yet. That's really jumping the gun. It's not allowed (yet, if ever).

If you're a PL, please mention any in your PL notes.
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