Plot Thoughts
Hey, writers, and readers who don't mind spoilers [revealing possible storyline before you read it] . . .
Let's share our thoughts that didn't get into the chapters we wrote or ... like that. Let's share ideas that could help weave the story. Ask questions. Make up answers.
NaNoWriMo Plot Thoughts -- SPOILERS!!
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Cloud Mountain
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I'm certain folks are not really interested in all of what I worked over in Chapter 9, but it might be good, or at least fun to hear some of my background noise as well as the 1,000 or more words I exorsized, including a major portion of Elder's written Chapter 4 of "The Mystery." (Yes I still have it.) It turned out to be 1/2 history (of the Order and the upbringing of T.M.) and 1/2 phenomenological conjecture. A wild blending of philosophy and philological histrionics.) (What?)
I wanted to turn the story towards just what "The Mystery" was and I found that it wasn't just ONE mystery, but a layers of the onion mystery or a set of nestled babushka mysteries. I wrote quite a bit about the "outer," "inner" and "secret" mysteries. The problem I was having was in concretizing that, to at least hint at what those two
I think I'd like to include here also what I feel are the important elements that DID get into the chapter. I tried to do two things with most of these: to make firm statements about soecific people and what they were doing or about to do. I also wanted to try to clarify as few thngs that have been a puzzlement to folks or were controversial or just plain puzzling.
I did all of this because I desided at least that the principal mystery (there are plenty of the already, both personal and social) was just what this novel was REALLY about. I couln'y (or didn't want to) come to a firm decision about that, but I snesed it had to be greater than any one person or faction, as there wasn't clearly a single central character with a I wanted to establish a lock of some kind that could focus us and the reader. Jumping all over the place is difficult for any reader. I thought that it had something to do with world peace or the greening of the world or hunger or a combination of a number of world concerns. That's part of why I hinted at a conflict larger than the local Malta Knights Templar conflicts, by going all the way back to their origins and seeing that many factions or groups. It was the Benedictine religious order out of which grew the Knights Hospitaller AKA, the Knights of Malta. So quite the story can grow out of the splitintering of groups with different views.
Also I was challenged to explore the puzzel of T. M. and how he was or wasn't related to Tracy and Trevor. I constructed an elaborate family tree and calculated the possible ages of his parents and grandparents and his aunts and uncles and cousins.
I also developed an elaborate matriarchal system for the highest rank in the Knights Hospitaller in which since women were not accepted as leader material and so within the Order women within the leader lineage elaborately courted husbands so that these husbands could act as the rulers but in fact it was the women who rules. When the men dies (which thay always do before women) the women took over that role not as before in the background but by actually taking on the physical apearance of their beloved husbands.
So, here in chaper nine. Elder was, from necessity, the wife of the real elder. This is why no one see's Top, because she's really not really a man, as most suppose. Even those rare individuals who do get to spend time with him/her do not recognize the difference —so skillful is her disquise.
This story also identifies the "good guys," or at least the well intended. Still who know what others will do with them, interpret them or see them to really be turn coats, double posures, and etc.
Thank you Anita for youe insights and cabashes... (However in heck you spell it!)
And there were all the confusing envelopes and who gave what to who...
There's a lot more, but I just finished writing it (late as always) and its 3:15 Am and I must go to sleep.
I wanted to turn the story towards just what "The Mystery" was and I found that it wasn't just ONE mystery, but a layers of the onion mystery or a set of nestled babushka mysteries. I wrote quite a bit about the "outer," "inner" and "secret" mysteries. The problem I was having was in concretizing that, to at least hint at what those two
I think I'd like to include here also what I feel are the important elements that DID get into the chapter. I tried to do two things with most of these: to make firm statements about soecific people and what they were doing or about to do. I also wanted to try to clarify as few thngs that have been a puzzlement to folks or were controversial or just plain puzzling.
I did all of this because I desided at least that the principal mystery (there are plenty of the already, both personal and social) was just what this novel was REALLY about. I couln'y (or didn't want to) come to a firm decision about that, but I snesed it had to be greater than any one person or faction, as there wasn't clearly a single central character with a I wanted to establish a lock of some kind that could focus us and the reader. Jumping all over the place is difficult for any reader. I thought that it had something to do with world peace or the greening of the world or hunger or a combination of a number of world concerns. That's part of why I hinted at a conflict larger than the local Malta Knights Templar conflicts, by going all the way back to their origins and seeing that many factions or groups. It was the Benedictine religious order out of which grew the Knights Hospitaller AKA, the Knights of Malta. So quite the story can grow out of the splitintering of groups with different views.
Also I was challenged to explore the puzzel of T. M. and how he was or wasn't related to Tracy and Trevor. I constructed an elaborate family tree and calculated the possible ages of his parents and grandparents and his aunts and uncles and cousins.
I also developed an elaborate matriarchal system for the highest rank in the Knights Hospitaller in which since women were not accepted as leader material and so within the Order women within the leader lineage elaborately courted husbands so that these husbands could act as the rulers but in fact it was the women who rules. When the men dies (which thay always do before women) the women took over that role not as before in the background but by actually taking on the physical apearance of their beloved husbands.
So, here in chaper nine. Elder was, from necessity, the wife of the real elder. This is why no one see's Top, because she's really not really a man, as most suppose. Even those rare individuals who do get to spend time with him/her do not recognize the difference —so skillful is her disquise.
This story also identifies the "good guys," or at least the well intended. Still who know what others will do with them, interpret them or see them to really be turn coats, double posures, and etc.
Thank you Anita for youe insights and cabashes... (However in heck you spell it!)
And there were all the confusing envelopes and who gave what to who...
There's a lot more, but I just finished writing it (late as always) and its 3:15 Am and I must go to sleep.
[url=http://librivox.org/newcatalog/people_public.php?peopleid=254]Alan's LV catalog[/url]
Thanks for that, Alan. A couple of points:
- The Knights Hospitallers/Knights of Malta/Order of St John were different from the Templars. Matter of fact, the Templars were dissolved, and a large portion of the (considerable) wealth was given over to the Hospitallers. I thought that might be an interesting future angle - the Templars still exist, underground, and want their money and property back so they can once again rise to their former glory (one assumes that, in today's corrupt world, they could buy their way to being re-established as an official order - a couple of handsome donations should take care of it).
- The high officers of the Order of St John are all 'professed knights' - meaning they have taken the triple monastic vow of obedience, poverty and chastity. Hence, no marriage. I have no problem with them secretly having 'relations' with, and being influenced by, women, but I don't see how a matriarchal line could come out of this. At least not (even semi-) officially.
- As a background read, I thought the official website of the "Sovereign Order of Malta" was fascinating. Statements like
- The Knights Hospitallers/Knights of Malta/Order of St John were different from the Templars. Matter of fact, the Templars were dissolved, and a large portion of the (considerable) wealth was given over to the Hospitallers. I thought that might be an interesting future angle - the Templars still exist, underground, and want their money and property back so they can once again rise to their former glory (one assumes that, in today's corrupt world, they could buy their way to being re-established as an official order - a couple of handsome donations should take care of it).
- The high officers of the Order of St John are all 'professed knights' - meaning they have taken the triple monastic vow of obedience, poverty and chastity. Hence, no marriage. I have no problem with them secretly having 'relations' with, and being influenced by, women, but I don't see how a matriarchal line could come out of this. At least not (even semi-) officially.
- As a background read, I thought the official website of the "Sovereign Order of Malta" was fascinating. Statements like
just seem such a lovely, biased view of history (old grudges), and1798 - in exile
Two hundred years later, in 1798, Napoleon Bonaparte occupied the island during his Egyptian campaign. The Knights, because of the Rule of the Order that prohibited them to raise weapons against other Christians, were forced to leave Malta. In 1800 the British occupied Malta, but although the sovereign rights of the Order in the island of Malta had been recognised with the Treaty of Amiens (1802), the Order was never allowed to return to Malta.
just made me wonder, if the hospitaller mission is the main activity, what are the other activities? Do we know?From then [after they took residence in Rome], the original hospitaller mission became the main activity of the Order, ...
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination circles the world." Albert Einstein
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raezel
Ok, I just have to ask a few questions.
1. Is The Knights of Malta a real organization (or whatever) I mean in hte real world?
2. In the chapter, is the Elder just old by normal terms, or old as in really anciently old (like a thousand years or sumsuch)
3. Is the elder the head of the organization that Fulvia works for, or some other?
1. Is The Knights of Malta a real organization (or whatever) I mean in hte real world?
2. In the chapter, is the Elder just old by normal terms, or old as in really anciently old (like a thousand years or sumsuch)
3. Is the elder the head of the organization that Fulvia works for, or some other?
1. Yes, the Knights of Malta existed and still exist. Everything I said in my chapter (06) is true (except the notion of the 11th, secret, Council member - but the Order is governed by the Grand Master and his Sovereign Council of ten knights).
The Wikipedia article on the Knights of Malta is quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_malta
The quotes in my post above are from their website: http://www.orderofmalta.org/
All the things said about the territory etc is also true.
2. Don't know about the Elder. The Grand Master, possibly?
3. Fulvia works for GLOBAL. In my chapter, GLOBAL operates contrary to the Knights, but this can easily be turned around. Who knows what's really going on? Everything is still open.
I can add another:
4. Who is this agency that Hazel works for?
The Wikipedia article on the Knights of Malta is quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_malta
The quotes in my post above are from their website: http://www.orderofmalta.org/
All the things said about the territory etc is also true.
2. Don't know about the Elder. The Grand Master, possibly?
3. Fulvia works for GLOBAL. In my chapter, GLOBAL operates contrary to the Knights, but this can easily be turned around. Who knows what's really going on? Everything is still open.
I can add another:
4. Who is this agency that Hazel works for?
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination circles the world." Albert Einstein
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Cloud Mountain
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ELDERraezel wrote:Ok, I just have to ask a few questions.
1. Is The Knights of Malta a real organization (or whatever) I mean in hte real world?
2. In the chapter, is the Elder just old by normal terms, or old as in really anciently old (like a thousand years or sumsuch)
3. Is the elder the head of the organization that Fulvia works for, or some other?
not THE Elder
[url=http://librivox.org/newcatalog/people_public.php?peopleid=254]Alan's LV catalog[/url]
I've been talking with Alan about his plot intentions, and I could sure use some input from folks. As proofreader on his chapter, I still have to go in and tweak a few things. Since the chapter isn't recorded yet, it's still plastic.
The character of the old wo/man is so fascinating, so wonderful, and also a tad cloudy right now. Let's put a bit more clarity in before the recording, okay folks?
That point about the Knights not being family men ... I see a way.
In chap 6, Fulvia mentions the Top as the 11th of the top guys in The Knights of Malta.
What if that identity is the inner secret of the order (some secret, I don't care which secret
)
The 11th has been passed through hereditary lines. I don't know why. So the fact that there is an 11th and that it's passed through a family -- that's the secret of the Order.
It's possible, with that, that a female influence has been at play for centuries, but my modern brain doesn't buy it. I think it's just too implausible without some magic potion to make the wife look like the husband, and ... remember death in child birth? Wives would not necessarily outlive the husbands. It's just not plausible to me that this could be a long-standing tradition.
I much prefer the notion that this particular wife was spunky and took over for her husband, seeing a way and making it so. It makes her a kind of master mind. It makes the idea an idea whose time has come -- that a female presence (if not yet voice!) have a profound influence on the course of things.
So far... does this sound interesting at all?
The character of the old wo/man is so fascinating, so wonderful, and also a tad cloudy right now. Let's put a bit more clarity in before the recording, okay folks?
That point about the Knights not being family men ... I see a way.
In chap 6, Fulvia mentions the Top as the 11th of the top guys in The Knights of Malta.
What if that identity is the inner secret of the order (some secret, I don't care which secret
)The 11th has been passed through hereditary lines. I don't know why. So the fact that there is an 11th and that it's passed through a family -- that's the secret of the Order.
It's possible, with that, that a female influence has been at play for centuries, but my modern brain doesn't buy it. I think it's just too implausible without some magic potion to make the wife look like the husband, and ... remember death in child birth? Wives would not necessarily outlive the husbands. It's just not plausible to me that this could be a long-standing tradition.
I much prefer the notion that this particular wife was spunky and took over for her husband, seeing a way and making it so. It makes her a kind of master mind. It makes the idea an idea whose time has come -- that a female presence (if not yet voice!) have a profound influence on the course of things.
So far... does this sound interesting at all?
Anita
Sounds very interesting. I, too, thought the idea of the matriachal influence too fantastical - but it can certainly happen once. Why not? Not the first, nor the last time that a woman has passed herself off for a man.
My idea of the hereditary aspect of the 11th Council member was to reconcile that TM was involving his daughter's husband's brother, and his nephew, in his work. Why not someone, anyone else? It seemed far-fetched, but hey. Best I could come up with at the time. If we can use it here, the better.
So TM couldn't use his daughter (only child) because she's not a man. Next candidate was the husband, but for whatever reason he wasn't suitable. However, his brother was.
According to Fulvia, GLOBAL 'got to' Geoffrey before he could tell Trevor anything (not that Trevor was all that ignorant anyway!). Maybe GLOBAL murdered Geoffrey?
My idea of the hereditary aspect of the 11th Council member was to reconcile that TM was involving his daughter's husband's brother, and his nephew, in his work. Why not someone, anyone else? It seemed far-fetched, but hey. Best I could come up with at the time. If we can use it here, the better.
So TM couldn't use his daughter (only child) because she's not a man. Next candidate was the husband, but for whatever reason he wasn't suitable. However, his brother was.
According to Fulvia, GLOBAL 'got to' Geoffrey before he could tell Trevor anything (not that Trevor was all that ignorant anyway!). Maybe GLOBAL murdered Geoffrey?
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination circles the world." Albert Einstein
Hmm, I'm not seeing the characters in quite that way. Let me spell out what I see
This wo/man is Trevor and Tracey's great-grandmother on mother's side.
in relation to Tracey and Trevor:
maternal great-grandparents:
Man (Mr. Missou) & Woman (Teresia Missou -- our wo/man of chap 9)
(aka the 11th of the Order of the Knights of Malta leadership)
maternal grandfather:
T.M. (the young T.M. in chap 9) (apparently died after some particularly tough adventure or something; cause of death still a mystery)
Mom
daughter of T.M., apparently not alive (her husband also apparently not alive)
The Twins
both of whom Teresia Missou (our wo/man) has been grooming secretly for taking over leadership of the Order or at least continuing this quest she's been on, having to do with actually improving life on earth
This wo/man is Trevor and Tracey's great-grandmother on mother's side.
in relation to Tracey and Trevor:
maternal great-grandparents:
Man (Mr. Missou) & Woman (Teresia Missou -- our wo/man of chap 9)
(aka the 11th of the Order of the Knights of Malta leadership)
maternal grandfather:
T.M. (the young T.M. in chap 9) (apparently died after some particularly tough adventure or something; cause of death still a mystery)
Mom
daughter of T.M., apparently not alive (her husband also apparently not alive)
The Twins
both of whom Teresia Missou (our wo/man) has been grooming secretly for taking over leadership of the Order or at least continuing this quest she's been on, having to do with actually improving life on earth
Anita
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Cloud Mountain
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TBOL3 was kind enough to post a draft of chapter 10.
Mind if I say I can't see how the first part, with the Tracy interaction could have possibly happened after what we've just read in 09 —even if it's a flashback? Doesn't fit for a number of reasons.
TBOL3... can a few of us discuss this in the Spoiler's forum? Would you like to do it via PM's or should I just butt out?
Can anyone else give me some feedback on this? Appologies if I'm out of place.
Mind if I say I can't see how the first part, with the Tracy interaction could have possibly happened after what we've just read in 09 —even if it's a flashback? Doesn't fit for a number of reasons.
TBOL3... can a few of us discuss this in the Spoiler's forum? Would you like to do it via PM's or should I just butt out?
Can anyone else give me some feedback on this? Appologies if I'm out of place.
[url=http://librivox.org/newcatalog/people_public.php?peopleid=254]Alan's LV catalog[/url]
Yes, that's right. I was talking about how I did ch. 06. Things developed nicely from there into ch. 09.a.r.dobbs wrote:Hmm, I'm not seeing the characters in quite that way. Let me spell out what I see
This wo/man is Trevor and Tracey's great-grandmother on mother's side.
in relation to Tracey and Trevor:
maternal great-grandparents:
Man (Mr. Missou) & Woman (Teresia Missou -- our wo/man of chap 9)
(aka the 11th of the Order of the Knights of Malta leadership)
maternal grandfather:
T.M. (the young T.M. in chap 9) (apparently died after some particularly tough adventure or something; cause of death still a mystery)
Mom
daughter of T.M., apparently not alive (her husband also apparently not alive)
The Twins
both of whom Teresia Missou (our wo/man) has been grooming secretly for taking over leadership of the Order or at least continuing this quest she's been on, having to do with actually improving life on earth
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination circles the world." Albert Einstein
Hmm... well, it is a draft... Cloud, perhaps you could PM TBOL3 and outline your concerns, or direct him here? I'm afraid I'm going to have to go to bed now... :)Cloud Mountain wrote:TBOL3 was kind enough to post a draft of chapter 10.
Mind if I say I can't see how the first part, with the Tracy interaction could have possibly happened after what we've just read in 09 —even if it's a flashback? Doesn't fit for a number of reasons.
TBOL3... can a few of us discuss this in the Spoiler's forum? Would you like to do it via PM's or should I just butt out?
Can anyone else give me some feedback on this? Appologies if I'm out of place.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination circles the world." Albert Einstein
So would this work (I don't want to do a bunch of changing for nothing)
If the man that comes is from yet ANOTHER secret orginization, and Tracy is at some home with a bunch of people. These people will be the end of The Mystery, and it was only Elder's Briliance that he was able to know it would soon end.
Now for Trever, I really don't see what the problem is with what he is doing, please help me.
Thanks
If the man that comes is from yet ANOTHER secret orginization, and Tracy is at some home with a bunch of people. These people will be the end of The Mystery, and it was only Elder's Briliance that he was able to know it would soon end.
Now for Trever, I really don't see what the problem is with what he is doing, please help me.
Thanks
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The Trevor part and the Fulvia part -- those don't have any plot conflicts. Just some spelling thingies. 
I mean, I don't *see* any plot issues.
Anybody?
I'm so glad everyone's getting Tracey out into the action now. Woo-hoo!
If you just cut the Tracey part out -- paste it in here, so at least the writing can be read -- the rest is great.
And don't worry about the word count. We're way ahead.
I mean, I don't *see* any plot issues.
Anybody?
I'm so glad everyone's getting Tracey out into the action now. Woo-hoo!
If you just cut the Tracey part out -- paste it in here, so at least the writing can be read -- the rest is great.
And don't worry about the word count. We're way ahead.
Anita
Alright, I give up, I will creat a whole new Tracy part, any Ideas?
OpenSciFi
Check out my podcast at: http://www.archive.org/details/OpenSciFi
feed: http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/dashboard?id=862845
PodcastAlley: http://www.podcastalley.com/podcast_details.php?pod_id=49988
forums: http://openscifi.myfreeforum.org/
Check out my podcast at: http://www.archive.org/details/OpenSciFi
feed: http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/dashboard?id=862845
PodcastAlley: http://www.podcastalley.com/podcast_details.php?pod_id=49988
forums: http://openscifi.myfreeforum.org/