Some Books that Aren't in the Public Domain (and why)

Suggest and discuss books to read (all languages welcome!)
phileasfogg
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Post by phileasfogg » October 17th, 2017, 7:11 am

Thanks for answering Cori, I asked to the National Library of Chile but they havent replied to me yet, anyway now I´m joinning more info about works published abroad Us and PD in the origin country and that info about if it was PD before 1996 i havent asked them yet. By the way i hope you understand my tarzanlike english... well. About the fact of Memoria Chilena manages common creative licenses is not referred to this work because there they explain that Memoria Chilena include 3 types of work:
1- Works produced by Memoria chilena (have CC licences)
2- Digital Objects
3- Works of the "Patrimonio Cultural comun": are PD,
Objetos digitales que forman parte del Patrimonio Cultural Común:
(Digitalized Objects that belongs to Patrimonio cultural comun:)

En Memoria Chilena se pueden encontrar obras de gran valor patrimonial que forman parte del Patrimonio Cultural Común. Tales creaciones, pueden ser utilizadas por cualquiera, siempre que se respete la paternidad y la integridad de la obra.
(We can find many works of high value in Memoria Chilena that integrate part of Patrimonio Cultural comun, they can be used freely and by any who desire it but they always have to mention the author and respect its integrity)
En tal sentido, la Ley mencionada señala que este patrimonio se compone por:
In that sense that mentioned Law points that this Patrimonio ii integrated by:
a) Las obras cuyo plazo de protección se haya extinguido;
a) Works which date of protection is finished
b) La obra de autor desconocido, incluyéndose las canciones, leyendas, danzas y las expresiones del acervo folklórico;
b) Works of unknown authors, including songs, legends, dances and expresions of folk heritage
c) Las obras cuyos titulares renunciaron a la protección que otorga esta ley;
c) Works which their makers resigned the protection of that law (This is the case of this book in particular)
d) Las obras de autores extranjeros, domiciliados en el exterior, que no estén protegidos en la forma establecida en el artículo 2° de la Ley N° 17.336;
d) Works of foreign authors, addressed in foreign countries, that are not specifically protected under the 2nd article of that law
e) Las obras que fueren expropiadas por el Estado, salvo que la ley especifique un beneficiario.
e) Works expropiated by the Estate, unless the law specify a beneficiary
"To Infinity and Beyond"
Buzz Lightyear

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Post by phileasfogg » October 17th, 2017, 7:37 am

Lol Cori, yes i read the brief history of the publisher of that book, and it seems that some workers of the major publisher in chile (zig-zag) went on a strike and they opened an Estatal Publisher (Quimantu for all)in 1971 and published a lot of books at low cost for the people. During the military intervention that publisher was closed, later on they tried to reopend it but in 1984 due to bankrupt was closed eventually. That's why this particular translation is PD on Chile and before 1996 (so it would be probaly PD in US, but I'm not sure anywway). BUt anyway i followed your advice and ask people of Gutenberg about their opinion. Is it advis0able to ask to the goverment office of Intelectual Properties in US ( U.S. Copyright Office - International Copyright) about the situation of this book or not?
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Post by Cori » October 17th, 2017, 7:52 am

Better to wait and see what Gutenberg and the National Library come back with first. I think one or both should be able to give a definite answer, whereas the Copyright Office might take a long time to say 'maybe'. ;)
There's honestly no such thing as a stupid question -- but I'm afraid I can't rule out giving a stupid answer : : To Posterity and Beyond!

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Post by Basquetteur » November 19th, 2017, 12:16 pm

Cori and Victor,

Sorry to mingle a little bit in this discussion. I come because I read about this in the thread about potential books in Spanish. My contribution is only on a tiny aspect.

I think what Cori quoted:
"Does this page http://www.memoriachilena.cl/602/w3-article-3362.html relate to the publisher or to a specific group of works? It mentions:
The investigations of Memoria Chilena, Biblioteca Nacional de Chile (DIBAM) are under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license, except for its digital objects"

refers to the research carried out by Memoria Chilena about the Editorial Quimantú and described in the website. Each book from this publisher, Quimantú, has a specific status. Some have reserved rights and others not.

I understand the consultation with Gutenberg is on going.

Regards,

basquetteur


Cori wrote:Heh, if that was me browsing, I don't know either. :hmm: It sounds like this is a Gov't-sponsored public domain type thing ... and so there's some precedent from, for example, the British House of Commons speech collections. For the US, I think the relevant legal angles would be:
Published without compliance with US formalities, and in the public domain in its source country as of 1 January 1996 - public domain now
OR
Solely published abroad, without compliance with US formalities or republication in the US, and not in the public domain in its home country as of 1 January 1996 - 95 years after publication.
Do you have any idea about whether this project was running in 1996, Victor? I can see they mention that it's 14 years old, but that's probably just the website, not the status of the books. And also that the publisher took about a decade to close, from 1973. It seems like the books could have been PD from 1984 onwards in that case.

Does this page http://www.memoriachilena.cl/602/w3-article-3362.html relate to the publisher or to a specific group of works? It mentions:
The investigations of Memoria Chilena, Biblioteca Nacional de Chile (DIBAM) are under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported license, except for its digital objects.
I don't know what that means, either. :| Are the books 'investigations' or 'digital objects'?

I'd probably contact Gutenberg anyway, and see what they make of it. :D I think it's worth a go!

GrownupDaria
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Post by GrownupDaria » June 14th, 2018, 3:57 pm

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I get something (after reading 8 of the 12 pages of comments and the original post):

Suppose I live in a non-English speaking country.
1. As a listener - since I can hardly believe that anyone would bother to register copyright (or whatever the correct verb is) of the version in English and I'm not even sure that it's possible from a legally-technical point of view, I wouldn't be breaking any laws by downloading and listening to the English version if it's on LV/is PD, right?

2. As a (potential) contributor - suppose I want to read a text which is (a) a translation to language A (not English) and the copyright of the translation has expired (death + 70 years) AND (b) the original text is in language B (also not English), and its copyright has expired too (death + 70 years). Would the US law have anything against it? Does it apply in any way in this case? I know I've asked this before, and received an answer that PG is the best source - but why would there be old translations of foreign languages + from foreign languages on Gutenberg? The chances are so slim.

I am aware of Legamus, but unfortunately they don't have a catalog. If I'm "fishing" for new books to read and I don't know their titles or authors' names, there is only one way to find stuff: to browse through the whole site (it's arranged as a blog, with only a few posts per page, a tedious task...). Since there are no sub-tags that would serve as sub-categories, I found the tag list of very little help. So, I'm not sure whether there are very few recordings that I'm interested in or I just can't find my way there.

Thanks!

P.S. I'm considering changing my elephant moto to something about copyright law :roll:
"When eating an elephant, take one bite at a time."

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Post by TriciaG » June 14th, 2018, 4:59 pm

GrownupDaria wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 3:57 pm
Suppose I live in a non-English speaking country.
1. As a listener - since I can hardly believe that anyone would bother to register copyright (or whatever the correct verb is) of the version in English and I'm not even sure that it's possible from a legally-technical point of view, I wouldn't be breaking any laws by downloading and listening to the English version if it's on LV/is PD, right?
I don't know how other countries register copyrights, or if they even do. I have been under the impression that Life+[years] countries don't have a copyright registry, and that anything written by someone who died within that [years] amount is automatically copyrighted in one's country. If this is true, you'd be breaking your country's copyright by downloading and listening to some of the books in our catalog, which were written or translated by someone who died "recently."
2. As a (potential) contributor - suppose I want to read a text which is (a) a translation to language A (not English) and the copyright of the translation has expired (death + 70 years) AND (b) the original text is in language B (also not English), and its copyright has expired too (death + 70 years). Would the US law have anything against it? Does it apply in any way in this case? I know I've asked this before, and received an answer that PG is the best source - but why would there be old translations of foreign languages + from foreign languages on Gutenberg? The chances are so slim.
US law might still call it under copyright if it was published in 1923 or later.

For those residing outside of the US, there are two laws to consider: the law of the country one is in (in your example, the "older than Life+70" author and translator covers this) and the US copyright law (for our purposes, 1922 or earlier, with some exceptions). Because US copyright law is so convoluted, for foreign-published works or in languages other than English, we require either the 1922-or-earlier publishing date or for it to be on Gutenberg.org. (I think if there's a full view option on HathiTrust.org, you can use that also.) We don't have lawyers or researchers on standby, so we can't thoroughly research the exceptions and odd twists and turns of copyright for works published outside the US, so we stick with this rule of thumb to be sure a foreign work isn't in US copyright.

Hope this helps!
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GrownupDaria
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Post by GrownupDaria » June 15th, 2018, 12:12 am

Thanks, Tricia!

So you've narrowed down the most important question of all: when does a law apply - and I think I have some people to ask.

As you have said, in the US the law follows the text (in 2018 - it's 1923). In other countries it follows the creator ("life+" formula). The question is how do you combine both sets of laws. If you have an American book published post-1923 (copyrighted in the US) that had been translated in a country with a "life+" formula, for the resident of that country I KNOW that the "creator" is the TRANSLATOR. If the original text was not written in that foreign country then what is left to understand is whether the copyright of the original text (US copyright) follows the original text globally. If it doesn't - then all the residents of "life+" non-English-speaking countries are exempt as listeners of the copyright restrictions as long as we're talking about the original English text and not the translations.
I will try to talk to some people, lawyers who are familiar with copyright law (globalization, high-tech etc.) and I even have a connection in the book publishing industry. I hope I have some answers for all the wierd situations.

This reminds me of a funny story about public domain. Some 40 years ago there was a quarrel between an old lady, a landlord, and an even older man, her tenant. There was a kind of a lifelong rent/lease that if one's relatives resided with the tenant, the lease would be inhereted by them when the tenant died. The old man brought his dauther to live with him, the rent was very low and the landlord looked for excuses to kick him out so she could rent the place on the free market. She found that excuse in a wire from the old man's appartment on the 3rd floor to a television antenna on the adjacent building, stretched above the landlord's yard (some 30-40 feet above the ground). But property law says that the property extends from below the ground and up to the air above the land. The case went up as high as the Supreme Court. The Judge, one that to my knowledge had no sense of humor and was as dry as a stick, wrote: I will assume that the property rights extend throughout the atmospehere, but would also assume, as is the common belief, that the Outer Space is still Public Domain.
Well, I wonder whether copyright law extends to the Outer Space...
BTW, the old man won. The Court's ruling was that the landlord was spiteful by trying to throw a 85-year-old man out of his home.
"When eating an elephant, take one bite at a time."

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Post by annise » June 15th, 2018, 12:25 am

Here I don't think we own the air above our title , we certainly only own the ground below to a certain depth and we don't have mineral rights :D
Personally I've got better things to do with my time than continually push against LV's PD policy - there are still lots of books around and I think authors are entitled to some protection at least for their lifetime.

Anne

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Post by GrownupDaria » June 15th, 2018, 1:08 am

Anne,

I totally agree. But neither the 95 years rule nor the life+70 is "some protection" . Just think of Agatha Christie's heirs reaction. From a philosophical point of view, it's either property rights or public domain. Where is the golden path?

From a more earthly point of view - as long as one is a resident of the US - no problem there. But once even the innocent listener is from another country, he might be a culprit by mere downloading. Not to mention other langauges (Pax Americana yes, but there are non-English speaking people too and some literature in these langauges). And as the Legamus project suggests, we all have to dwell under the umbrella of LV (and I personally love it!).
"When eating an elephant, take one bite at a time."

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Post by moniaqua » June 15th, 2018, 1:14 am

GrownupDaria wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 3:57 pm
I am aware of Legamus, but unfortunately they don't have a catalog.
But they do have a search. Also, if you click on "All recordings", there is a list with authors and titles. I actually don't see your problem on this.

As for the copyright - there are so many wonderful books definitely in PD, why should I stretch any law?

I don't know whether there are international solutions to the complicated cases you mention, actually I doubt it. If I can't record a book that is in PD for me, because it was published 1923 or later, I go to legamus, so what? I can't record some books that were published before 1923, because the authors lived too long - shit happens. I won't move to US only because of this :lol:

GrownupDaria
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Post by GrownupDaria » June 15th, 2018, 5:16 am

moniaqua wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 1:14 am

But they do have a search. Also, if you click on "All recordings", there is a list with authors and titles. I actually don't see your problem on this.
Baaaahhh... I think that my smartphone screen is too small and I see only parts of the page. Don't think I ever saw this button. Just like I can't see the "thank a reader" button on LV. Can you imagine how many thanks have not reached their destination on account of this wretched little screen?! :?
moniaqua wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 1:14 am
I can't record some books that were published before 1923, because the authors lived too long - shit happens. I won't move to US only because of this :lol:

Lucky you. With my choices, it seems they all died between the age of 29 and 45. A superstitious person might think that they died BECAUSE in their cards it was already written that one day, some 100 years later, a certain Daria would read (listen to) them :shock:
"When eating an elephant, take one bite at a time."

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Post by TriciaG » June 15th, 2018, 7:25 am

There is also a bit of a difference between recording and listening. Then you only have to comply with the copyright law of the country you are in. US copyright doesn't matter for listening (unless you're in the US, of course). ;)

To throw another whole layer of complexity into the mix, some countries have what's called "the rule of the shorter term." If I am not mistaken, this means that in countries with this rule, if a work originating in another country is out of copyright in that country, it's also considered out of copyright in the country with this rule. It's a bit of a "who are we to extend copyright longer if the work is out of copyright in its country of origin?"

However, it's complex - a whole other can of worms. :roll: Basically, as a listener, we recommend you follow the rules of the country you're in, but we cannot enforce it or give solid advice on just what those laws are.
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Post by Cori » June 15th, 2018, 12:58 pm

If you have an American book published post-1923 (copyrighted in the US) that had been translated in a country with a "life+" formula, for the resident of that country I KNOW that the "creator" is the TRANSLATOR. If the original text was not written in that foreign country then what is left to understand is whether the copyright of the original text (US copyright) follows the original text globally.
I'm a bit tired, so am not sure if I'm understanding this right. Also, I Am Not A Lawyer. However, a translator is creating a new work, but not a fully-original work. The original is connected to the translation and both copyrights are relevant. To give some examples of how I personally see it (the actuals will vary depending on where it was first published and when it was published in the US if different):

First published: 1915
Author died: 1940
Translation published: 1920
Translator died: 1945
Both original and translation are eligible for LV. Either could be recorded by, and listened to by, people in Life+70 countries.

First published: 1925
Author died: 1950
Translation published: 1930
Translator died: 1940
The original and translation are both still in copyright in 'Life+70' countries. The original is still in copyright in the US (and therefore for LV) unless the copyright was not renewed, and PG agree with the research to prove that. It's very likely that the translation will remain copyright regardless, because international law.

First published: 1920
Author died: 1950
Translation published: 1925
Translator died: 1940
Both versions are probably still in copyright in 'Life+70' countries, but the original would be eligible for LV, recorded by a US reader. It's possible that people in Life+70 countries who download it would be breaking the law. A person with legal knowledge did look briefly into this several years ago, but the answer was 'inconclusive'. I'd recommend people play it safe unless they can get more definite legal advice for their own situation. The translation could be recorded for LV 70 full years after the death of the author.

First published: 1930
Author died: 1940
Translation published: 1935
Translator died: 1945
Neither version is eligible for LibriVox, but both the original and translation could be recorded at Legamus. US listeners could not legally listen to either, but people in Life+70 (or less) countries are fine.


This is why we go with 'is PG okay with it?' as a rule of thumb for anything published more recently than 1922. And why we advise non-US based listeners to check on their own local laws before downloading -- because we simply can't provide a single answer. Several other legal factors are in play depending on their country.
There's honestly no such thing as a stupid question -- but I'm afraid I can't rule out giving a stupid answer : : To Posterity and Beyond!

GrownupDaria
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Post by GrownupDaria » June 15th, 2018, 1:58 pm

Wow, Cori, thank you!

This breaking up into different scenarios is very helpful.

I'll try to look into it with a publisher I know. Even if they're not lawyers, I'm sure they'd know when their copyrights expire.
"When eating an elephant, take one bite at a time."

SiaBoBia
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Post by SiaBoBia » July 31st, 2018, 12:22 pm

How do I find out information about C.S. Lewis' works? I can't figure out if his books are allowed to be recorded or if they've already been recorded. lol :roll: I'm lost!

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