[FULL][Verse Drama] The Ring of the Nibelung by Richard Wagner - rr

[PaulWelford]

Sounds like a good DPL challenge. I’m up for it.

[BrianFullen]

Sounds like a good DPL challenge. I’m up for it.

That's great, Paul, thank you.

[AgnesRobert]

a very exciting project!

[BrianFullen]

On other projects, especially science fiction / fantasy ones, I have been asked by volunteers if they should adhere to a pronunciation guide for unfamiliar, inventive proper names. As BC or DPL (or both) I replied "no", while at the same time sharing with them pronunciations that other collaborators used for the project. That's because I launched the projects calling for standard PL and would not have failed a recording for a mispronunciation.

I have myself read in on two projects that did seek consistency in the pronunciation of proper names through the inclusion of a guide and I did my best to adhere - I guess I did alright because my recordings were accepted. But really, that's all that I will ask for on this project ... a 'best effort' in the pronunciation of certain character and place names.

It is not my intent to be pedantic. My only concern is for the eventual audio book listeners; I think that a level of commonality in references to key characters, locations and an important object or two will improve their understanding and enjoyment of this important work.

All that said ...

This post is meant to serve as a starting point in the development of a pronunciation guide. When done that guide will not meant for those who speak German because they will certainly not need guidelines from me. I will edit this post over the coming day or two with the goal of completing a basic guide as soon as possible. Hopefully before launch. When I think it sufficiently complete and correct, I will insert the guide in the first post on this topic.

For starters I culled character names and a few place names from the source texts. They are:

Alberich, Brünnhilde, Donner. Erda, Fafner, Fasolt, Flosshilde. Freia, Fricka, Froh, Gerhilde, Grimgerde, Gunther, Gutrune, Hagen, Helmwige, Hunding, Loge, Mime, Nibelheim, Norn, Nothung, Ortlinde, Riesenheim, Rossweisse, Schwertleite, Siegfried, Sieglinde, Siegmund, Siegrune, Tarnhelm, Wala, Walhall, Wälsung, Waltraute, Wellgunde, Woglinde, Wotan

I suspect that some or possibly many of these will drop out because I will find that their pronunciation will be so close to their written form in the English translation that including them in a finalized list will be unnecessary. When I am close to finalizing the list I will more closely review the source texts to see if there may be names that should be included.

I am not a German speaker. But there are innumerable resources online on which I will rely. I will start with the basics as in e.g. this Wikibooks German Grammar, Alphabet and Pronunciation article.

There are also a number of online resources specific to the operas for which we are using the translated librettos and I will continue my review of those as well.

Thanks for your understanding.

[BrianFullen]

Updated the first post subject to reflect that we now have a volunteer DPL and to better indicate the nature of the works. Thanks.

[Availle]

I'm having my eye on BRÜNNHILDE here and I'd be happy to help you with the pronunciation guide. If the above are the names you need, I'm happy to record them once you have an MC.

[BrianFullen]

I'm having my eye on BRÜNNHILDE here and I'd be happy to help you with the pronunciation guide. If the above are the names you need, I'm happy to record them once you have an MC.

Wow! These are two fantastic offers as I see it. Yes, of course to BRÜNNHILDE and to a recorded pronunciation guide! Thank you so much.

[redrun]

Well, that looks like my cue.
I'll get us set up with a Magic Window, and be back shortly.

Update:
Alright Brian, your Magic Window is in place!

I have made a change in the naming scheme for the final files, but we can make adjustments as you'd like. The constraints are:
- Each section must be no more than 74 minutes long (at least one book seems like it might be longer)
- We need the final files to sort in the right order on listeners' devices (the books themselves aren't in the same alphabetical and chronological order)

The reader files have no such restriction.

There's time to figure out what the final file names should be, but we'll need to be sure the narrator knows to say multiple intros for any books that are split. It may be simplest to plan on each Scene/Act being its own file, but that's your decision.

[BrianFullen]

Well, that looks like my cue.
I'll get us set up with a Magic Window, and be back shortly.

Update:
Alright Brian, your Magic Window is in place!

I have made a change in the naming scheme for the final files, but we can make adjustments as you'd like. The constraints are:
- Each section must be no more than 74 minutes long (at least one book seems like it might be longer)
- We need the final files to sort in the right order on listeners' devices (the books themselves aren't in the same alphabetical and chronological order)

The reader files have no such restriction.

There's time to figure out what the final file names should be, but we'll need to be sure the narrator knows to say multiple intros for any books that are split. It may be simplest to plan on each Scene/Act being its own file, but that's your decision.

Siegfried may be the hero of the tale, but you are mine.

I'm also acutely aware of the possibility of restructure due to length. For those reasons I plan to not only BC but also edit and do the the stage directions to boot. I think that will give me / us some flexibility since I can hold off on the narration (intro/outro) towards the middle or even end of the project when we have more feel for duration.

I do not plan to claim any roles for myself at this point in time and I will only further make claim as a sort of last resort if we get far into the project and 'bit parts' are unclaimed.

I won't fill-in the MW immediately. I want to first get a bit more done with pronunciation. Next post will be the first of a series on that.

Have I said that I cannot thank you enough? Hah, I just did!

I know you are quite busy but this project could be a bit of a slow-burner from time to time and maybe you'd consider gracing the project with your skills.

My hope is that volunteers will not approach this as a sort of reading of some book on mythology but will get into the dramatic / legendary / epic / heroic feel of it.

Come on all you would be or now are Voice Over acting types ... make us ... nay, do yourself proud!

[BrianFullen]

In trying to express 'sounds like' English words, please bear in mind that I am a USA English speaker so I don't know if my choices are optimum for UK English speakers. This is the first in a series of posts towards developing a guide of sorts with more to come over the next few hours.

• Our hero Siegfried and his famous 'named' sword (in the heroic tradition) Nothung:
  • At the start of a word the German 'S' is pronounced like 'Z' in English. Siegfried sounds to me a little like ZIG-freed, except that the 'r' is guttural / rolled and I'm not sure there is an English equivalent (more likely in French). The 'h' in Nothung is silent and it sounds quite like to me (sort of like an instruction for how not to kiss).

• Some deities including Wotan (the 'All father' who sometimes travels among humans disguised as the 'Wanderer', Donner (the thunder god), Loge (the somewhat mischievous fire god) and Froh (German for glad, I believe, and I'm not sure if he's akin to Freyr in Nordic tradition):
  • The German 'W' is pronounced like the English 'V' so like VOH-tan, perhaps. Donner sounds very like the English name Donna to me while stressing the first syllable. In the Loge case I believe the 'g' needs to be hard as in the English word get; so like LOW-ga maybe. I think Froh rhymes with the English word throw except that, yet again, the 'r' is guttural / rolled. So, possibly FROW

• Some more deities including Fricka (as spelled by Wagner with many other spellings over the ages - she is referred to as goddess of prophecy or clairvoyance and possibly also marriage - and might be the 'wife' of Wotan), Freia (goddess of love, beauty and fertility, etc.) and Erda (I think she is like a 'mother earth or Earth Goddess not only because of what I see in the source text but also because of the similarity with erde the German word for earth):
  • Because of 'ee' sound for 'i' Fricka sounds a bit like FREEK-ah or FREE-ca to me. To me, Freia sounds like FRAY-ah and Erda like AIR-da, but both again with guttural / rolled 'r' sound.

• The Nibelungen, Alberich and Mime (who remind me of Sméagol, or Gollum, and his brother, Déagol, who Gollum slays because, of course, brotherly bonds can be broken when it comes to greed for a ring of power and, similarly, Alberich and Mime vie bitterly for the ring):
  • Nibelung sounds so close to nibbling to me but maybe a little like KNEE-bling. In English translation 's' is used for pluralization (instead of 'en') and it sounds like a normal English 's' rather than a 'z' sound. Alberich has the famous 'ich' sound that is difficult for many (or maybe just me) and best I can approximate is something like AWL-be-rish (wish I could do better, sorry). To me Mime sounds almost like MEE-maw (that grandmas are sometimes called in USA) but maybe more like MEE-ma.

[BrianFullen]

I think I see an MW but I won't data fill until my tomorrow. I am GMT -5 or so ...

[BrianFullen]

Next in series of posts on pronunciation ...

• The giants including Fafner (who actually does slay his brother over the ring and then becomes a dragon and in his turn is slain by the heroic Siegfried) and Fasolt (slain brother, RIP):
  • For the giant cum dragon Fafner, I hear FAPH-na, with 'fa' as in 'a long, long way to run' from the Sound of Music. And for his dearly departed giant brother, Fasolt, I hear FA-zold, which to me is like a contracted sentence 'Pa's old.' but with 'P' replaced by 'F' and 's' by 'z'.

• Place names (Nibelheim, and Riesenheim) that include the German heim which translates to home in English:
  • Heim sounds to me like rhyme but with the leading letter 'r' removed so that the 'h' would change from a silent to an aspirated (strong) one. The first syllables in Nibelheim seem like nibble to me but with a long 'ee' sound rather than short 'i'. The first syllables in Riesenheim sound to me like the English word 'reason' in which 's' sounds like 'z'. So, perhaps, KNEE-ble-hyme and REASON-hyme.

• Personal names ending with hilde (Brünnhilde, Flosshilde, Gerhilde) that include the German hil which translates to help or maybe contextually heal in English:
  • Hilde sounds a lot like the name Hilda to me except that the German hil sounds like the English heal to me. The closest English rhyming I can think of for Brünn is rune; for Floss it is floss; and Ger it is air. So, perhaps, BRUNE-heal-da, FLOSS-zeal-da or even FLAWS-zeal-da and GAIR-heal-da.

• Personal names ending with 'linde' (Ortlinde, Sieglinde, Woglinde):
  • Linde sounds a lot like the name Linda to me except than I hear something more like the English word lean. I don't hear the 'r' in Ort so that this sounds more like English aught. The 'S' at the beginning for Sieglinde should be pronounced like 'Z' in English and the German 'W' is pronounced like 'V' in English. So, I hear something like AUGHT-lean-da, ZIG-lean-da and VOGUE-lean-da with maybe vogue as in the French to English word.

[Availle]

Before you're going here into 5 million posts where you're overthinking things - my offer of recording a pronunciation guide still stands.

[BrianFullen]

I think, for now, I've done enough [damage?] on my attempts at pronunciation. I will wait just a bit for corrections from the more knowledgeable (Availle!) before proceeding with more so that I can factor their feedback. [My] Tomorrow morning I will work in earnest on MW data fill. Cheers!

[BrianFullen]

Before you're going here into 5 million posts where you're overthinking things - my offer of recording a pronunciation guide still stands.

Oh, hey, look, while I was busy hitting submit on my 'pause' post I got much needed feedback. Yeah, for sure, I'll stop cluttering and let's go with a more useful recording. Silly me, but when I say I will to something I try to follow through, even if in vain. But I will forego the concept of a 'so called' written guide in favor of your aural one. Cheers.