COMPLETE [COOKERY] Guide to Modern Cookery 1 - Escoffier- rg

smijen · Post by **smijen** » July 13th, 2013, 3:55 am

Hi Chris and Ruth,
I'll be away next week, but will catch up on any PL'ing when I get back. Escoffier will be turning over in his grave if he sees any of my campfire cooking.

ccfpcl · Post by **ccfpcl** » July 13th, 2013, 4:32 am

Thanks Sarah

I shouldn't hurry back on our account - I don't think there will be much of a backlog, sadly!

Cheers, Chris.

bropops4 · Post by **bropops4** » July 15th, 2013, 3:18 am

please assign me section 10 elementary preparations, thank you, malone

ccfpcl · Post by **ccfpcl** » July 15th, 2013, 6:38 am

Great! Thank you Malone.

I hope you enjoy it and maybe pick up some tips too.

I'll put you in the Magic Window when I'm back at my PC.

Chris

RuthieG · Post by **RuthieG** » July 22nd, 2013, 12:29 am

Don't get excited, I am not claiming a section. However, I do have some news about the translator (whom I was still trying to track down for the new author database). I am pretty certain we were led astray by the Worldcat entries that you found. I don't think he was the author or translator of any of those. I think they just came from his collection (the Herndon-Vehling Collection which is also mentioned on the Worldcat pages). This one was nothing to do with him at all. It was written by Christian Isobel Johnstone (aka Mrs. Margaret Dods) and can be found at the Internet Archive.

The connection, I believe, is far more tenuous, and gives us a clue who old James B. Junior actually was:

James B. Herndon, Jr. was a former Vice-President of the Hilton Hotels Corporation, treasurer of the Waldorf-Astoria Corporation, and chairman of the American Hotel Association. He bequeathed his collection of rare books on cookery and culinary subjects to Cornell University in 1953.

See this page for more: http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/footsteps/exhibition/buildingcollections/buildingcollections_6.html

So, my guess is, he probably died in 1953. Not that it matters from our point of view as he was American.

Ruth

ccfpcl · Post by **ccfpcl** » July 22nd, 2013, 2:39 am

Hello Ruth

Yes - I DID get excited - briefly

I found most of what you refer to when I dug into this previously. Since I took at face value the citations putting him in authorship in the early C19, I concluded (though it seemed bizarre) that there were two JBH Jrs, The one having set up the foundation in deference to his grandfather(?)and namesake who wrote/translated all the books.

If the citations are spurious, then I guess the conclusion that the younger JBHJ was the one and only, and also the translator is more plausible, though I have to say that a career from culinary translator at 20 to a VP of one of the larger US corporations I find somewhat hard to swallow.

I'm still puzzled about the "it doesn't matter because he was American" comment you made before. Clearly he *was* an American citizen. But I thought it was the citizenship of the potential plagiarist that mattered, not that of the Author? LV is littered with books which say DO NOT RECORD THIS IF YOU ARE IN EUROPE AS THE (American) AUTHOR DIED AFTER 1940 - Edgar Rice Burroughs to name but one. Is the rule different for translators?

Thanks, Chris.

joangel · Post by **joangel** » July 22nd, 2013, 5:00 am

I'd like to claim chapter 6 please, possibly more later
thanks, Joanne

ccfpcl · Post by **ccfpcl** » July 22nd, 2013, 5:08 am

It's all yours.

Thanks Joanne!

Cheers, Chris.

RuthieG · Post by **RuthieG** » July 22nd, 2013, 7:17 am

LV is littered with books which say DO NOT RECORD THIS IF YOU ARE IN EUROPE AS THE (American) AUTHOR DIED AFTER 1940 - Edgar Rice Burroughs to name but one. Is the rule different for translators?

No, it isn't different for translators. There is something called the Rule of the Shorter Term, a provision by which signatory countries do not grant a longer term of copyright protection than that granted by the author/translator's own country. It all gets very murky, because:

In the European Union, copyrights have been harmonized amongst the member states by the EU directive 93/98/EEC on harmonising the term of copyright protection. This binding directive, which became effective on July 1, 1995, has raised the duration of copyrights throughout the union to 70 years p.m.a. It also includes in its article 7 a mandatory rule of the shorter term for works from non-EU countries. Within the EU, no comparison of terms is applied, and—as in the Berne Convention or in the UCC—existing international obligations (such as bilateral treaties) may override this rule of the shorter term.

We know that Germany does not apply the Rule of the Shorter Term re US works, but no-one here has ever come up with any reason why the UK should not observe it. Hence, although we are not 100% legally sure, most UK readers, including myself, are willing to record works

by US authors/translators
published in the US and
in the Public Domain in the US.

Ruth

ccfpcl · Post by **ccfpcl** » July 22nd, 2013, 8:28 am

Thanks Ruth - that's very helpful.

I had no idea it was so complicated!

This seems to imply that I *can* read Rice Burroughs et al, with minimal risk of being clapped in irons. That's great news.

Can I suggest that it would be worth changing the boilerplate that goes on new projects with this copyright issue to something more equivocal, as it has successfully put me off all these until now. Here is a typical entry:

Volunteers outside the USA: Howard Roger Garis died in 1962. The author's work is still protected by copyright in places, like Europe, where copyright is author's death plus 70 years, and Australia (author's death plus 70 years for authors who died after 1955).

Perhaps inclusion of a link to a relevant discussion thread would do the trick - assuming such exists.

Having said all that, in our situation one of your three criteria does not hold - the Escoffier was published in London, according to the frontispiece - so we are no further forward AFAICS.

Cheers, Chris.

RuthieG · Post by **RuthieG** » July 22nd, 2013, 9:07 am

I'd forgotten that. Oh, well, I suppose I'd better take my chances, then

. You're right, international copyright is utterly impossible for everyone except extremely highly-paid lawyers, and as the many court cases show (especially in the US) even they are often wrong.

My view tends to be that my actions have always been in good faith throughout my life, and if the law is so complicated that no-one can give a definitive answer without my paying them thousands, then the law, sir, is an ass.

Ruth
who is getting quite bolshy in her old age

joangel · Post by **joangel** » July 24th, 2013, 3:23 am

Hi I'd like to claim Section 7 and 8 as well as the one I'm working on.
thanks, Joanne

ccfpcl · Post by **ccfpcl** » July 24th, 2013, 3:56 am

Hi Joanne

They're yours!

Hope you're enjoying your cookery course

Thanks, Chris.

joangel · Post by **joangel** » July 24th, 2013, 1:36 pm

Thanks for assigning me the sections. Yes I am learning a few new (old) terms. There's a few I had to look up on google so I'll feel better knowing what I'm talking about.

RuthieG · Post by **RuthieG** » July 24th, 2013, 2:42 pm

God bless http://www.howjsay.com/

Ruth