Cover art: Thy Soul Shall Bear Witness - public domain?

[TheBuriedBook]

Regarding Thy Soul Shall Bear Witness:

viewtopic.php?t=40928
https://librivox.org/thy-soul-shall-bear-witness-by-selma-lagerloef/

The LibriVox cover art was uploaded to https://commons.wikimedia.org which requires a free license. As a work of LibriVox it is PD. However this was contested, and the file was deleted. The argument was there is no evidence the image the cover art derives from is actually public domain. English Wikipedia treats it as copyright: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carretaposterfe2.jpg

Since LibriVox is known for being careful about copyright, I was wondering if there is a discussion somewhere I can learn more about the origin of the artwork.

I found a commercial site which is suggestive of 1921, but it's not clear when this poster was created: https://www.cinematerial.com/movies/korkarlen-i12364 .. maybe it was from a re-release because they did repurpose old PD films for the college circuit in the 50s and 60s. The poster looks old, but the artwork seems more modern than 1921. It's a curiosity.

[TriciaG]

All we have is what is on the cover: "cover illustration from a poster for Körkarlen (1921), the first film based on the novel". There was no discussion; the post where it was submitted is here: viewtopic.php?p=800238#p800238

Is there somewhere on Commons that shows the discussion of why it was taken down?

Chances are that it's PD, if it was created in 1921. (Is there going to be a poster made later on for a movie released in 1921? I doubt it.) But if there's evidence it's newer than that, we'd be wise to replace the artwork.

[TheBuriedBook]

Discussion on Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Thy_Soul_Shall_Bear_Witness_librivox_cover.jpg

[annise]

The cover in question was submitted in 2012 by a member who made her living as a commercial artist and would be well aware of copyright laws,

The first English translation of the book seems to have been in 2012 and a quick search showed me only 1 cover (it would not have been a best seller so it's unlikely that there were different editions published in 1912,
The cover on LV has a much more interesting font.
So I'm reasonably happy that it was probably a Swedish film poster that was used by both parties. And we do not claim copyright on our covers - whoever said that was wrong

Anne

added https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carretaposterfe2.jpg - I feel it comes under fair use if nowhere else -

[TheBuriedBook]

Criterion Collection chose not to use this image for its DVD cover art, they went with something less attractive. Why wouldn't they use this beautiful, iconic, first edition film poster? It's certainly very tempting to use it and overlook copyright in the sense of prove it's copyright vs. prove it's PD. The later is how the law works though.

[TriciaG]

We're a bit more strict about our chosen texts than the cover art, since they take so many more hours and people to produce. This artwork is PD to our satisfaction, although it might not be proven so in a court of law. If we get a complaint from an alleged copyright holder, we will.

Yes, we want the artwork to be PD, and we make efforts to assure it is. But a case like this, where a "person with common sense" would conclude it's PD, we'll use the art.

[TheBuriedBook]

Since the poster is from the Swedish film release, we can assume the poster was never released in the USA, therefore it falls under Swedish copyright. Accordingly it lapses into the public domain 70 years after the death of the artist. If we assume the artist was 35 years old in 1921, and they lived to be 80, they died in 1966 (1921+45) + 70 years = copyright until 2036. These are reasonable numbers. If the artist was older than 35 and/or died much younger than 80, it probably is PD. I guess we don't really know. But if LibriVox's position is no one cares anymore and we'll take it down if asked, that's certainly a position, but it is essentially copyright laundering since LV states it is PD, when in fact nobody knows. The film was released by Svensk Filmindustri, a still active company and the largest film studio in Sweden. SF is owned by Bonnier Group. A good guess is the Group, or the Bonnier family, are the rights holders if still in copyright. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnier_family

[TriciaG]

OK, that argument is convincing enough for me. I'll work on replacing the cover with something else this evening.

(Besides, there's a typo on it, that now that I see it, will bother me forever!)

[TheBuriedBook]

That's probably a wise decision, unfortunate as it's such an interesting piece of art. I also found https://www.cinematerial.com/movies/korkarlen-i12364/p/71xto6nk which says "Copyright by respective movie studios". I'm not totally convinced this site and notice is authoritative, but they make this disclaimer, which is the only thing we have found so far.

[annise]

Librivox uses USA copyright so a Swedish copyright is totally irrelevant. So when the artist died doesn't matter. Many of the books on LV are not out of copyright for non-USA citizens (like me) . And the USA copyright is quite complex - but I doubt very much if this was ever granted copyright in the USA and I doubt it was ever renewed.
If we or IA ever received a complaint from the copyright holder we would take it down but in over 10 years this has not happened.

Anne

[TriciaG]

Ah, good catch! I don't know why I didn't remember that.

[annise]

I'm probably more frustrated by my PD rules than you are - there are some favourite authors I'd love to solo on LV but can't because the authors lived too long for me. Anne

[johng]

I’m not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but… Is there someone out there who could provide a cover for The Diamond Sutra which is waiting for some artwork??
https://librivox.org/the-diamond-sutra-chin-kang-ching-or-prajna-paramita-by-unknown/

Thanks!!!!
John

[TriciaG]

I’m not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but… Is there someone out there who could provide a cover for The Diamond Sutra which is waiting for some artwork??
https://librivox.org/the-diamond-sutra-chin-kang-ching-or-prajna-paramita-by-unknown/

Thanks!!!!
John

All projects get covers. Sometimes it takes a little while, but there is no need to ask.

EDIT to add: Carthinius has claimed the cover and is working on it.

[johng]

All projects get covers. Sometimes it takes a little while, but there is no need to ask.

EDIT to add: Carthinius has claimed the cover and is working on it.

Thanks so much!!!
I had no idea!