Gauging Interest - Mueller Report [LAUNCHED]
I agree on stating the full tag, or else read it fully for the first time when you encounter it in each chapter and abbreviate after that, because people are going to dip in and out and listen to chapters they are more interested in. Which would be a PITA for the DPL to keep track of and check for each chapter!
It's a government document, it's gonna be clunky. The Watergate report was stuffed full of tables and tedious figures but we plowed on through it!
Footnotes: I think we should go with the standard approach of reading them if there is any interesting information in them but not if it's just a reference or a citation. And just read "Footnote....end of footnote" without the footnote numbers.
Not sure about reading citations that occur within the text. I'm working on a Supreme Court decision project and the rule there is to not read citations within the text.
I'm about to record the Intro/Exec Summaries of both volumes and I plan to read them completely, including in-text citations but not footnote citations. I'll let you know how awkward it is after I finish!
Colleen
It's a government document, it's gonna be clunky. The Watergate report was stuffed full of tables and tedious figures but we plowed on through it!
Footnotes: I think we should go with the standard approach of reading them if there is any interesting information in them but not if it's just a reference or a citation. And just read "Footnote....end of footnote" without the footnote numbers.
Not sure about reading citations that occur within the text. I'm working on a Supreme Court decision project and the rule there is to not read citations within the text.
I'm about to record the Intro/Exec Summaries of both volumes and I plan to read them completely, including in-text citations but not footnote citations. I'll let you know how awkward it is after I finish!
Colleen
Colleen McMahon
No matter where you go, there you are. -- Buckaroo Banzai
No matter where you go, there you are. -- Buckaroo Banzai
Sure!
Samuel Stinson
"And furthermore, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." (Ecclesiastes 12:12, ASV)
"My tongue is the pen of a ready writer." (Psalms 45:1, ASV)
"And furthermore, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." (Ecclesiastes 12:12, ASV)
"My tongue is the pen of a ready writer." (Psalms 45:1, ASV)
On the citations within the text, I think it's fair to quote chapter and verse. i.e. 18 USC 'Squiggly S' 951 (a) should, technically, be read as Title 18 United States Code Section 951, subsection (a). The squiggly S which I can't replicate here meaning 'section'. No different than a bible verse, really. This is the way it's done in the legal field. Instead of John 3:1, Gospel According to John, Chapter 3, Verse 1.
However, I don't think it's necessary for the footnotes. I would prefer not to do footnotes at all, but agree that it's relevant and we should do it when it's interesting/relevant. When it's interesting should be designated as such by the reader.
However, I don't think it's necessary for the footnotes. I would prefer not to do footnotes at all, but agree that it's relevant and we should do it when it's interesting/relevant. When it's interesting should be designated as such by the reader.
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Kathy
Kathy
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Gotta get into your character map and copy it from there.

Gotta get into your character map and copy it from there.
Bulwer-Lytton novel: The Caxtons
Adventure/Travel: Across Mongolian Plains
Boring works 30-70 minutes long: Insomnia Collection 5
Adult dog stories: Best Dog Stories
Gospel of Matthew: Matthew, YLT
Adventure/Travel: Across Mongolian Plains
Boring works 30-70 minutes long: Insomnia Collection 5
Adult dog stories: Best Dog Stories
Gospel of Matthew: Matthew, YLT
Tricia, you are too cool for school!
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Kathy
Kathy
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This is a bit beyond my capacity to BC, but I'm *Very* interested in reading a section or several.
Please let me know if I'm able to help with anything; I'll be happy to assist.
Please let me know if I'm able to help with anything; I'll be happy to assist.
~Angelique
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Josh Kibbey
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Yes, I agree. It's things like this that I think we should be consistent about, because this is already going to be a difficult document for listeners to follow.ktzn wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 5:42 pmOn the citations within the text, I think it's fair to quote chapter and verse. i.e. 18 USC § 951 (a) should, technically, be read as Title 18 United States Code Section 951, subsection (a). ... No different than a bible verse, really. This is the way it's done in the legal field. Instead of John 3:1, Gospel According to John, Chapter 3, Verse 1.
I encourage our valiant BC to make a list in the first post of the main thread of all the reading rules he wants the readers to consistently stick to.
Rob Marland reader section | website
I asked a lawyer friend and gave him the example of the clause "see, e.g., Justice Manual (squigglysquiggly) 9-13.400, 13.410" and he said he would pronounce it as, "see, for example, Justice Manual sections nine dash thirteen point four hundred, thirteen point four hundred ten"
Also, there are some Latin abbreviations that come up regularly and we should decide something consistent on reading those. I don't really have a problem with pronouncing them just as they appear on the page -- reading "i.e." as simply "i.e." but I've seen others say that you should substitute the meaning just like you automatically would read "Mr." as "Mister".
So:
etc. - "and so on"
e.g. - "for example"
i.e. - "that is"
et al - "and others"
inter alia - "among other things"
et seq. - "and following"
It might be good to decide whether to read these consistently one way or the other, but I don't think it's that big a deal. When some laws are being cited the abbreviations get more complex, like "28 C.F.R. (squiggly) 600.4(a)" -- C.F.R. means Code of Federal Regulations and a lawyer might read it as "Code of Federal Regulations, Title twenty-eight, section six hundred point four, subsection a" but reading it exactly as it appears (other than substituting "section" for "squiggly") would give it in a way that someone who wanted to understand the exact reference or even write it down to go look up could do so, and it would not get too long and clunky for casual listeners.
I usually just read the abbreviations as they appear on the page, and most people have a good idea of what "et cetera" and "e.g." and "i.e." mean even if they don't know the Latin, but now that I've looked all these up, I might substitute the English meaning going forward, especially on the less familiar ones like inter alia and et seq.
I do think we should set a standard for this to make it easier for each reader to know how to do these and so the prooflistener has a standard to refer to as well. I admit I'm a nerd about these things and probably notice more than a lot of listeners, but I do get mildly distracted when listening to a collab work and different readers pronounce things differently. But I also freely acknowledge that I may have a little mind with hobgoblins...
Colleen
Also, there are some Latin abbreviations that come up regularly and we should decide something consistent on reading those. I don't really have a problem with pronouncing them just as they appear on the page -- reading "i.e." as simply "i.e." but I've seen others say that you should substitute the meaning just like you automatically would read "Mr." as "Mister".
So:
etc. - "and so on"
e.g. - "for example"
i.e. - "that is"
et al - "and others"
inter alia - "among other things"
et seq. - "and following"
It might be good to decide whether to read these consistently one way or the other, but I don't think it's that big a deal. When some laws are being cited the abbreviations get more complex, like "28 C.F.R. (squiggly) 600.4(a)" -- C.F.R. means Code of Federal Regulations and a lawyer might read it as "Code of Federal Regulations, Title twenty-eight, section six hundred point four, subsection a" but reading it exactly as it appears (other than substituting "section" for "squiggly") would give it in a way that someone who wanted to understand the exact reference or even write it down to go look up could do so, and it would not get too long and clunky for casual listeners.
I usually just read the abbreviations as they appear on the page, and most people have a good idea of what "et cetera" and "e.g." and "i.e." mean even if they don't know the Latin, but now that I've looked all these up, I might substitute the English meaning going forward, especially on the less familiar ones like inter alia and et seq.
I do think we should set a standard for this to make it easier for each reader to know how to do these and so the prooflistener has a standard to refer to as well. I admit I'm a nerd about these things and probably notice more than a lot of listeners, but I do get mildly distracted when listening to a collab work and different readers pronounce things differently. But I also freely acknowledge that I may have a little mind with hobgoblins...
Colleen
Colleen McMahon
No matter where you go, there you are. -- Buckaroo Banzai
No matter where you go, there you are. -- Buckaroo Banzai
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My feeling is that we should read everything exactly as it is on the page ("e.g." is "e.g." and so on). Not everyone will understand the abbreviations / Latin when we say it, but they wouldn't have understood it if they read the original document. And that's fine. Plus, it sticks closely to the general Librivox guideline not to add or change anything.ColleenMc wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 5:53 am
I usually just read the abbreviations as they appear on the page, and most people have a good idea of what "et cetera" and "e.g." and "i.e." mean even if they don't know the Latin, but now that I've looked all these up, I might substitute the English meaning going forward, especially on the less familiar ones like inter alia and et seq.
Colleen
I am more for having rules about how to deal with the symbols (§ and ¶), which some readers here might not recognise (the section symbol is new to me).
Rob Marland reader section | website
I think there are more important things for volunteers to record.
If the sentiment for recording government reports of this kind is genuine, then let's see it done as a part of a larger scaled project. Otherwise, I think we will be seen as far too singularly focused and rather soaked in the contemporary.
I don't oppose this project, but it certainly is not why I came to LibriVox.
If the sentiment for recording government reports of this kind is genuine, then let's see it done as a part of a larger scaled project. Otherwise, I think we will be seen as far too singularly focused and rather soaked in the contemporary.
I don't oppose this project, but it certainly is not why I came to LibriVox.
My LibriVox: https://librivox.org/sections/readers/13278
Fair enough Kevin. There's plenty of space for us all at Librivox. 

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Kathy
Kathy
I agree. I also think that it is sad that some countries could potentially ban librivox, because they'd see librivox in a negative light. We talked about that earlier in the thread, and maybe it won't be the U.S, but it could happen to some other countries where we have some nice volunteers.KevinS wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 7:58 amI think there are more important things for volunteers to record.
If the sentiment for recording government reports of this kind is genuine, then let's see it done as a part of a larger scaled project. Otherwise, I think we will be seen as far too singularly focused and rather soaked in the contemporary.
I don't oppose this project, but it certainly is not why I came to LibriVox.
Elijah
*Please help out in these projects*
Haworth's, T. Tembarom, Discoveries among Ninevah, The Cloister and the Hearth, DR-Little Men, DR-The Story Girl
*Please help out in these projects*
Haworth's, T. Tembarom, Discoveries among Ninevah, The Cloister and the Hearth, DR-Little Men, DR-The Story Girl