[PD-US?] Margie Harris/gordon young "pulp" stories

Suggest and discuss books to read (all languages welcome!)
michaelwy
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Post by michaelwy » January 30th, 2019, 10:07 am

I recently did some research into older pulp fiction, and i discovered two writers that might be interesting for librivox.

They were noted for their rough attitude, and in a sense they represent a more modern type of fiction than the drawing room "puzzle" mysteries.

The first one comes from the notorious Gangster Stories pulp magazine from the 1930s. Her name is Margie Harris. She disappeared from public view in the late 30s, i think and was never heard from again. Her life is a mystery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margie_Harris

The second one is mentioned as a literary precursor to the hard boiled writing style. His name is Gordon Young and he wrote about a gambler called Don Everhard in the 1920s or 30s. He died in 1948, so his stories are PD.

However I have not been able to track down a suitable etext. But it would be great fun if somebody could give it a try.

These are pulp writers who preceded some of the later more famous hardboiled writers (Chandler /cain etc) by a decade. And they are great fun and PD!!

TriciaG
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Post by TriciaG » January 30th, 2019, 12:05 pm

He died in 1948, so his stories are PD.

Not necessarily. In the USA, where our files are hosted and thus whose rules we follow, the death date doesn't matter; it's the publication date and copyright renewal or lack thereof.

Works published in 1923 or earlier are automatically PD in the USA.

Works published after 1923 and up to 1977 or so are PD if they did not have their copyright renewed 28 years after publication. This is hard to prove, so we rely on two reputable sources for these works: gutenberg.org and hathitrust.org. If either of those sites have the work (on hathitrust.org if it's available as Full View), it's OK to record for us.
Christmas Lore: LINK
Mystery stories: The Master of Mysteries

michaelwy
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Post by michaelwy » January 31st, 2019, 5:28 am

Maybe somebody can get in contact with these guys
https://www.pulpmags.org/index.htm
It might be usefull, there are all sorts of pulp stories, from romance, to monsters, sci fi and crime. Maybe they can suggest something decent that you could use to make a "pulp audio collection"?

annise
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Post by annise » January 31st, 2019, 5:41 am

They would need to be cleared by Project Gutenberg - there are instructions on their site about how to do it , but I think there would need to be a copy available for them to do anything. Why don't you contact the pulp site and find out more information about the availability, and Public Domain in the USA status ?

Anne

michaelwy
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Post by michaelwy » January 31st, 2019, 8:46 am

Thanks, i have contacted them on Facebook asking for help, but they haven't replied yet. If they do not reply soon, i will send them an email in stead. I will let you know what they say.

michaelwy
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Post by michaelwy » February 1st, 2019, 12:21 pm

I have discovered that there are books published with collections of the texts I am after. If i can use that text, then I have somewhere to start. I have emailed the editors.

In the meantime. I discovered this site

https://dimenovels.lib.niu.edu/about/site/copyright

It's a site that collects public domain stories from the Nicle and Dime novels that preceded Pulp magazines. It's a huge resource and they state what is public domain or not

Look at this niceselecton of spy stories
https://dimenovels.lib.niu.edu/islandora/search?islandora_solr_search_navigation=0&f%5B0%5D=mods_genre_lcsh_ms%3A%22Spy%5C%20stories%22

TriciaG
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Post by TriciaG » February 1st, 2019, 12:30 pm

From the site (emphasis mine):
Works published after 1923 have been determined to be free of known copyright restrictions, but users are encouraged to proceed with caution. These works will be clearly identified by the rights statement "No Known Copyright." The user assumes responsibility for possible infringement of copyright and/or literary property rights in the act of copying or in the subsequent use of materials.
This website looks to be OK, but please do not record anything published in 1924 or later. 1923 and earlier are definitely OK.

Fortunately, only 256 of the over 6,400 works on that site are in this category, so it should be fairly easy to avoid them. :)

Great find for source texts!
Christmas Lore: LINK
Mystery stories: The Master of Mysteries

michaelwy
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Post by michaelwy » February 2nd, 2019, 2:11 pm

I have been given the goahead to use Margie Harris stories on my net radio station. However, I was thinking about making a book project that collected various pulp and nickle and dime writers in one project.
What if somebody collected a few stories?

It could look something like

Nickle & Dime and Pulp collection
1. A couple of Nick Carter stories (PD, they are old)
2. A Margie Harris story (John L. Locke, the editor tells me they are OK to use)
3. A couple of Gordon Young stories about Don Everhard (waiting to hear about potential copyrights)

TriciaG
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Post by TriciaG » February 2nd, 2019, 3:32 pm

No Margie Harris or Gordon Young, unless you can find them on Gutenberg.org or HathiTrust.org.

The earliest by Nick Carter I can find is from 1964, so they same would apply: Gutenberg.org or HathiTrust.org.
Christmas Lore: LINK
Mystery stories: The Master of Mysteries

michaelwy
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Post by michaelwy » February 2nd, 2019, 4:11 pm

TriciaG wrote:
February 2nd, 2019, 3:32 pm
No Margie Harris or Gordon Young, unless you can find them on Gutenberg.org or HathiTrust.org.

The earliest by Nick Carter I can find is from 1964, so they same would apply: Gutenberg.org or HathiTrust.org.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Carter_(literary_character)

Nick Carter is a character created in 1886 ?

John L. Locke is the editor of this book
https://www.amazon.com/Queen-Gangsters-Vol-Broadwalk-Empire/dp/193503118X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1549150357&sr=8-2&keywords=margie+harris

TriciaG
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Post by TriciaG » February 2nd, 2019, 4:50 pm

Ah - I thought you meant John Carter, author. :)

Works about John Carter are OK, following the text source guidelines posted here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72912
Christmas Lore: LINK
Mystery stories: The Master of Mysteries

Cori
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Post by Cori » February 3rd, 2019, 6:50 am

Looks like a Project Gutenberg clearance might not be too difficult for you to get, given the info above. :D But we will need that confirmed before the project gets started. We have no budget for being sued, so even if we're fairly confident, it's good to cover ourselves with a strong second opinion.

I'm also not sure how Margie Harris' unknown dates would work for those of us outside the US ... for example, I need to follow both EU and US law which can be a bit of a pain. Once you've done the PG clearance, we'd probably need to make those open to US-based readers only.
There's honestly no such thing as a stupid question -- but I'm afraid I can't rule out giving a stupid answer : : To Posterity and Beyond!

michaelwy
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Post by michaelwy » February 3rd, 2019, 12:40 pm

Cori wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 6:50 am
Looks like a Project Gutenberg clearance might not be too difficult for you to get, given the info above. :D But we will need that confirmed before the project gets started. We have no budget for being sued, so even if we're fairly confident, it's good to cover ourselves with a strong second opinion.

I'm also not sure how Margie Harris' unknown dates would work for those of us outside the US ... for example, I need to follow both EU and US law which can be a bit of a pain. Once you've done the PG clearance, we'd probably need to make those open to US-based readers only.
John Locke (the editor of her collection of stories) told me that Margie Harris was public domain. Also, her identity is entirely unknown. It might not even be her real name, if she indeed was a woman. In order to be sued for copyright violations, somebody needs to own the copyrights. And Margie Harris has no known relatives. Also, if she died before 1948, her work would even so be public domain in Europe. As you can see from her wikipedia page, she is estimated to be around 50 years in 1930. That would make her 68 in 1948.
Also, if the relatives suddenly should come forth and reveal her identity, then the stories would be PD in the US anyway. It is not likely that they should come forward with expressed intention of claiming copyrights in Europe.

But I understand if you dont wish to take a chance. I will search for another neglected pulp writer :) Still I intend to use a couple of Harris stories in my radio station. There are no downloads at my site, so the distribution is much more controlled. Also, Locke's words are good enough for me. I have, however, begun removing some other writers from my playlists that are not public domain in both regions. Because my database is quite large, it may take a few weeks. But in the end I will be able to withstand any kind of scrutiny, I think. I also write emails to whom ever I am able to contact, asking for permissions.

I still need a reader for my Harris stories, though, as I mentioned in the off topic thread.

michaelwy
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Post by michaelwy » February 3rd, 2019, 1:06 pm

Yes one more thing. It would be nice if there could be some formal contact between the pulp magazines project/ the nickle & dime project and gutenberg/ librivox.
If you somehow could establish formal contacts with them, you could have access to the vast pool of nickle and dime and pulp writers.

https://www.pulpmags.org/

https://dimenovels.lib.niu.edu/

Both these projects are run by universities and academics.

Also, it would be nice if you created a section in your forum that lists sources of texts that have been cleared by you. That would make it easier for those who want to create a book project to search for texts.

annise
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Post by annise » February 3rd, 2019, 1:49 pm

I think you misunderstand how this site runs, we are all volunteers, there is no point in saying "you should" because there is no "you" to do all these things you keep suggesting. You have found a great site, but it is up to the book coordinators who chose what project they are interested in, to check the status and give evidence of it being PD if it is not on our recommended sites or available with a scan showing on the scan itself a publication date of 1923 or earlier.

Anne

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