Samuel L Brengle books - new source in first post!

Suggest and discuss books to read (all languages welcome!)
Elizabby
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Post by Elizabby » January 13th, 2019, 3:14 pm

Hi Devorah, please don't ruin your personal copy trying to verify the PD-ness of a book which has so many copies because it has been in the PD so long!

(I never include the scripture references in an audiobook anyway as I think it ruins the flow of the text. I figure the listeners can look it up if they really want to, and most of them will know the references anyway.)

But the Kindle "bundle" of six books doesn't seem to have extra scripture references, so if you text-check against that one you should be OK. It's also available in a variety of formats which will suit most people, I think. (Just not great for me, on a Mac, but I'll cope if necessary.)

I'm not sure how much text you would need to check to be sure - not the whole book, presumably. Maybe just the last 2 pages of each chapter? That's where things are most likely to be inadvertently chopped off, I guess.

Here's the link for the Kindle bundle again:
Or this is the "Six Kindle books" collection - if this one matched, would we be able to argue that all of them would be usable? All these books were published in the 1800's, so there's no issue with the original copyrights.

https://archive.org/details/SixKindleBooksBySamuelLoganBrengle

mightyfelix
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Post by mightyfelix » January 13th, 2019, 3:24 pm

I remember you mentioning this collection, but I don't remember seeing the link for it. I'll see what I can do. I haven't run into .mobi files before, so I'll have to figure out how to access them.

EDIT: (What about the epub file you found before? Was there a reason that one is unusable?)

Elizabby
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Post by Elizabby » January 13th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Here's the link for the Kindle bundle again:
Or this is the "Six Kindle books" collection - if this one matched, would we be able to argue that all of them would be usable? All these books were published in the 1800's, so there's no issue with the original copyrights.

https://archive.org/details/SixKindleBooksBySamuelLoganBrengle
The epub one was fine for me, I just was a bit concerned that not everyone would be able to access it, after Tricia's comment and inability to download it. I have no issues using that one if it checks out.
You're going to have trouble getting readers to access the epub version. They'd have to have a device that supports that format. :hmm:
Maybe the easiest way to do it would be to link the epub link to the project and then refer people to the Google PDF document you made if they can't use it? That way we would have a reliable online text source AND relatively easy access for readers.

annise
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Post by annise » January 13th, 2019, 4:00 pm

I'm not sure how much text you would need to check to be sure - not the whole book, presumably. Maybe just the last 2 pages of each chapter? That's where things are most likely to be inadvertently chopped off, I guess.
We have rules because that is the legal advice we were given - and breaking copyright is stealing from the copyright holder

Obviously the online version you refer to is not the same as the pre 1924 version - not because of accidental chopping off of pages but because scripture references that the author did not include in the PD version are present which shows that version has been edited by someone at some time and so is not automatically PD and LV cannot accept it

You could read it legally for any site not based in the USA like Legamus as it is PD in Australia and in the EU but LV is based in the USA and LV needs to only use texts which clearly follow the guidelines given.
And sometimes this is frustrating but that is how it is,

Anne

Elizabby
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Post by Elizabby » January 13th, 2019, 4:21 pm

So if the PDF one isn't clearly PD (even though the American library hosting it says that it is) then my question remains: how much text needs to be checked to verify that there are not substantial changes? If 2 pages at the end of each chapter isn't a sufficient sample, then what would be? I don't think it is reasonable to ask Devorah to destroy her personal copy in order to prove that the text is PD.

I've supplied two other links, and I can find more if these don't check out - there are heaps of copies of this book online already. All I need to know (if you know) is how much text checking would LV require?

Alternatively, there seems to be a way to submit text for checking to Project Gutenberg? I think this is not an ideal time to do it, as I'm sure they are very busy with 1923 material, but it could be done. The only time I've tried to do it my text suggestion was rejected - though the same book was later cleared when put forward by someone else, so clearly the problem is my lack of understanding of how to work with their systems.

I am not suggesting trying to cheat anyone of their legitimate copyright royalties. I am trying to determine what level of proof of PD-ness is required by Librivox. (This book is already in the PD according to many other sources I've found.) So far I've tried to launch this project twice, after doing extensive research for legal sources over several months. Nobody has given me a clear answer as to what level of proof would be acceptable, only told me that the ones I've supplied aren't! I think it's understandable that I'm a bit frustrated.

mightyfelix
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Post by mightyfelix » January 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm

Elizabby wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 3:14 pm
Hi Devorah, please don't ruin your personal copy trying to verify the PD-ness of a book which has so many copies because it has been in the PD so long!
Too late! I've just photographed each page without causing too much damage. The spine feels a bit looser, but it's not ruined. :wink: Regardless, if we're having this much trouble, it may very well be that others might wish to find a better online version, too. I'm serving my fellow man. :D I think that scanning it would have caused more damage, because it would need to be squished flat between glass.

Anyway, I'm transferring the photos from my phone to my computer and just have to figure out how to get them formatted nicely so I can upload them. I have uploaded to archive once before, so once I've got everything formatted, we'll be in good shape. Stay tuned!

Elizabby
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Post by Elizabby » January 13th, 2019, 4:32 pm

annise wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 4:00 pm
I'm not sure how much text you would need to check to be sure - not the whole book, presumably. Maybe just the last 2 pages of each chapter? That's where things are most likely to be inadvertently chopped off, I guess.
Obviously the online version you refer to is not the same as the pre 1924 version - not because of accidental chopping off of pages but because scripture references that the author did not include in the PD version are present which shows that version has been edited by someone at some time and so is not automatically PD and LV cannot accept it
I understand this, I suggested a 2-page per chapter sample of the text as a good place to sample text for both accidental and deliberate text alteration. 2 pages per chapter for this book would be 28x2=56 pages of 118, which is nearly half the book. (He writes in quite short chapters.) If this is not acceptable, is the only way to verify the whole book, word for word? It is relatively easy to prove that there have been changes to the text, but much harder to prove that there have NOT been.

TriciaG
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Post by TriciaG » January 13th, 2019, 4:33 pm

mightyfelix wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm
Elizabby wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 3:14 pm
Hi Devorah, please don't ruin your personal copy trying to verify the PD-ness of a book which has so many copies because it has been in the PD so long!
Too late! I've just photographed each page without causing too much damage. The spine feels a bit looser, but it's not ruined. :wink: Regardless, if we're having this much trouble, it may very well be that others might wish to find a better online version, too. I'm serving my fellow man. :D I think that scanning it would have caused more damage, because it would need to be squished flat between glass.

Anyway, I'm transferring the photos from my phone to my computer and just have to figure out how to get them formatted nicely so I can upload them. I have uploaded to archive once before, so once I've got everything formatted, we'll be in good shape. Stay tuned!
Cool! Because I was composing a big post that basically said, "We don't know." :roll:

I've found that if you can combine all the pictures into one PDF file (like using a print-to-PDF program on them), better than to submit a bunch of jpg files.
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Elizabby
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Post by Elizabby » January 13th, 2019, 4:36 pm

mightyfelix wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm
I'm serving my fellow man. :D
Well, I've got to admit, it would be much easier for our DPL, in particular! :9:

PS - I've just realised that this is an all-women project (so far at least) with you, me and Patty as our DPL! No fellow men yet! ;)

Elizabby
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Post by Elizabby » January 13th, 2019, 4:47 pm

TriciaG wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 4:33 pm

Cool! Because I was composing a big post that basically said, "We don't know." :roll:
I hope I will not be out of line by suggesting that it might be useful to determine this? If it's 10% or 20% or 50% or if the verification would be only acceptable at 100% of the text verified unaltered.

It isn't necessary for this project, but might come in useful in the future. Like for the next Brengle book! There are two more in the Kindle Bundle that we haven't recorded yet, that I was going to launch them after this one, but as far as I know there isn't a hard copy to be found.

If we could verify that one book in the Kindle Bundle (this one) has unaltered text, would that be sufficient to use the others? All of the original publication dates are well out of copyright, so it's text alteration that's the issue, rather than copyright dating per se.

Actually, we've recorded three out of the six books already: Heart Talks on Holiness, When the Holy Ghost is Come, The Soul-Winner's Secret. This would make four. I'm prepared to read those three books again to text match them - but only if it would be useful. I would need to know how much of a text sample is required, and if such verification would be useful for the other two books.

TriciaG
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Post by TriciaG » January 13th, 2019, 5:00 pm

The thing is, you'd need a clearly PD edition to compare. If there isn't a hard copy, where is the standard to work from?

Honestly, I think some of the admins would say that comparing a text (20%, 50%, whatever) is not a good thing to do, and that an actual text scan with a clearly-PD date on it, a post-1923 text at HathiTrust available as Full View, or the text at Gutenberg labeled as PD in the USA are the only options. It may prohibit texts that are PD, but it makes verification 100% easier.
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TriciaG
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Post by TriciaG » January 13th, 2019, 5:00 pm

Christmas Lore: LINK
Proofs the Earth Isn't a Globe: LINK
Mystery stories: The Master of Mysteries

mightyfelix
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Post by mightyfelix » January 13th, 2019, 5:16 pm

TriciaG wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 5:00 pm
P.S. There are 4 Brengle books in the LV catalog: https://librivox.org/author/12965?primary_key=12965&search_category=author&search_page=1&search_form=get_results
We know. Beth and I worked on all four of these. But it was not so difficult to find a good online text for them.

TriciaG
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Post by TriciaG » January 13th, 2019, 5:26 pm

On further thought about the other texts, I think we should take a step back and review the text policy as posted in the stickied thread in this forum. From there:
Texts acceptable for LV:
* Scans of works which show the publication year as being 1923 or earlier
* Texts available on Gutenberg.org (see note below)
* Texts available as "full view" on HathiTrust.org
* Texts from other sites that state clearly which edition the text came from, and that do not restrict the use of their text with a CC or other license (gutenberg.au, bartleby.com, and plenty of others)

Sources that share transcribed works (works rendered into html) without a clear statement of what edition they came from aren't allowed, just like they're not allowed for 1922 works. Wikisource is not acceptable unless it has a scan that clearly shows a publication date of 1923 or earlier, because they restrict use of the texts with a CC license.
I think the Kindle/ePub version fits into that last paragraph: "Sources that share transcribed works without a clear statement of what edition they came from".

Sorry if I've added to the confusion. I knew I had gotten a bit myopic on the subject.
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Elizabby
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Post by Elizabby » January 13th, 2019, 6:53 pm

TriciaG wrote:
January 13th, 2019, 5:00 pm
P.S. There are 4 Brengle books in the LV catalog: https://librivox.org/author/12965?primary_key=12965&search_category=author&search_page=1&search_form=get_results
Yes, I know. But "Way of Holiness" is not part of this 6 book collection.

Not that it matters, since I gather from your previous reply that unless each book individually can be verified to be in compliance with a known PD source, that they are unsuitable text sources? Having four out of six books in the collection verified as being in compliance with PD versions (and the original book publication dates known to be prior to 1923) isn't good enough?

If this is a correct understanding of the situation, then this will be the last Brengle book for LV, since after extensive searching I've not been able to find approved online texts for any more, and it is prohibitively expensive to buy real first edition books and have them shipped to Australia!

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