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Post Posted:: June 29th, 2016, 6:15 pm 

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LE PARADIS PERDU DE MILTON, POEME HEROIQUE by John Milton (1608 - 1674). Translated by François-René Vicomte de Chateaubriand (1768 - 1848)



Quote:
Comme Virgile a développé l’épopée à célébrer l’origine de sa propre patrie, Milton l’a adaptée encore plus pour raconter l’origine du mal et le remède à la chute de l’homme; c’est ce sujet qu’il appelle “des choses qui n’ont encore été tentées ni en prose ni en vers.” L’auteur continue à combiner l’innovation et la tradition quand il débute le premier livre “in medias res” avec la visite au monde infernal (cf. Odyssée livre 11, l’Enéide livre 6), car la malice de Satan est le principe déterminant de l’action négative. Mais au centre du poème se trouve le triomphe du Fils de Dieu sur les anges rebelles, ce qui neutralise le projet nocif de Satan. Ce dessein de la conquête du mal par le bien se présage dans les deux conseils d’état: En enfer Satan s’engage à trouver et ruiner la nouvelle création lorsqu’au ciel le Fils s’offre comme sacrifice pour sauver l’homme avant que Satan ne l’ait corrompu.
Après ces préliminaires, nous voyons Eden et “nos premiers parents.” Satan, découvert en train de les épier, est expulsé du jardin. Puis Dieu charge un ange d’expliquer à Adam et Ève l’histoire de la guerre au ciel, où a commencé le danger imminent. À la demande d’Adam, l’ange raconte la création du monde visible et surtout le développement naturel: Toute croissance se déroule de l’assimilation de la nourriture; le mangeur épure la pâture, non pas vice versa.
Cependant, Satan, qui rentre dans le paradis sous forme de serpent, apprend à Ève à escroquer l’évolution: Il a trouvé un fruit magique qui peut la douer d’une puissance prodigieuse. Il prétend que ce fruit lui ait conféré et la raison et l’usage de la parole. Ève, qui imagine qu’Adam vient de sous-estimer sa fortitude morale, se permet d’oublier sa leçon récente et elle succombe à cette tentation. Puis, Adam, incapable d’imaginer la vie sans Ève (et sans avoir examiné des alternatives au péché), reçoit le fruit de sa femme et le goûte, lui aussi.
Néanmoins, le triomphe de Satan est éphémère, car malgré une nouvelle grand-route qui relie l’enfer au monde de l’homme, lui et ses disciples souffrent l’humiliation d’une annuelle métamorphose involontaire en serpents.
Quels que soient leurs motifs, Adam et Ève, tous les deux, ont désobéi au seul commandement de leur Créateur, et tous les deux sont condamnés à la mortalité et à l’expulsion du jardin. Cependant, avant qu’ils ne partent, Dieu leur accorde encore une leçon d’histoire, cette fois de l’avenir: le progrès du péché, l’avènement du Sauveur, et la croissance de l’église.
La prose de Chateaubriand accorde avec la syntaxe de l’original assez bien, mais l’aspiration du traducteur à la clarté l’amene à l’occasion d’anéantir certains effets subtils de l’auteur.

(Thomas Copeland)



  • Text source (only read from this text!): http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5452523p/f10.image
  • Type of proof-listening required (Note: please read the PL FAQ): translatedtext



    IMPORTANT - soloist, please note: in order to limit the amount of languishing projects (and hence the amount of files on our hard-pressed server), we ask that you post an update at least once a month in your project thread, even if you haven't managed to record anything. If we don't hear from you for three months, your project may be opened up to a group project if a Book Coordinator is found. Files you have completed will be used in this project. If you haven't recorded anything yet, your project will be removed from the forum (contact any admin to see if it can be re-instated).
    Please don't download or listen to files belonging to projects in process (unless you are the BC or PL). Our servers are not set up to handle the greater volume of traffic. Please wait until the project has been completed. Thanks!

    Magic Window:



    BC Admin
  • The reader will record the following at the beginning and end of each file:
    No more than 0.5 to 1 second of silence at the beginning of the recording!
    START of recording (Intro):
    • Livre ## du PARADIS PERDU. Ceci est un enregistrement LibriVox. Tous nos enregistrements appartiennent au domaine public. Pour vous renseigner à notre sujet ou pour participer, rendez-vous sur LibriVox POINT org."
    • If you wish add: [i]"Enregistré par [nom]."
    • Puis, dites: "LE PARADIS PERDU de John Milton. Traduit par François-René Vicomte de Chateaubriand. Livre [##]"


    For the second and all subsequent sections, you may optionally use the shortened form of this intro disclaimer:
    • "Livre ## de LE PARADIS PERDU de John Milton, traduit(e) par François-René Vicomte de Chateaubriand. - Cet enregistrement LibriVox fait partie du domaine public. »"
    • If you wish, say: "Enregistré par [nom]."
    • Only if applicable, say: "[Chapter title]"

    END of recording:
    • At the end of the section, say:
      "Fin de [Livre ##].
    • If you wish, say:
      "Enregistré par [nom]."
    • At the end of the book, say (in addition):
      "Fin du PARADIS PERDU de John Milton. Traduit de François-René Vicomte de Chateaubriand"


    There should be 5 seconds silence at the end of the recording, or 10 seconds for files longer than 30 minutes.
  • Example filename paradisperdu_##_milton_128kb.mp3 (all lower-case) where ## is the section number (e.g. paradisperdu_01_milton_128kb.mp3)

    [b]Transfer of files (completed recordings)

    Please always post in this forum thread when you've sent a file. Also, post the length of the recording (file duration: mm:ss) together with the link.
    • Upload your file with the LibriVox Uploader: https://librivox.org/login/uploader
      Image
      (If you have trouble reading the image above, please message an admin)
    • You'll need to select the MC, which for this project is: Availle - availle
    • When your upload is complete, you will receive a link - please post it in this thread.
    • If this doesn't work, or you have questions, please check our How To Send Your Recording wiki page.


Any questions?
Please post below


Last edited by chymocles on November 7th, 2016, 8:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Post Posted:: June 29th, 2016, 6:38 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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The webmaster in charge of the text, Paul Gosselin, has asked me to bundle all recommendations for textual emendations together for the entire poem. I am not likely to be able to do so until I finish the entire project. This poses a difficulty for proof-listening. I imagine that we can manage somehow; for instance, I am willing to delay the entire project until the readings have been completed if that should prove to be the only solution. However, since this is my first effort in reading in a foreign tongue for LibriVox, I would very much appreciate having a native speaker of French listen to my reading of Book 1 to tell me whether my broadly "soutenu" reading is successful. I can increase of decrease the liaisons, but I have so far had no criticism from a native speaker of French. It is for this reason that I propose to begin the project before the online text has been amended.

The textual issues are scanning errors such as "l'a" for "la," "Bélusou Sérapis" for "Bélus ou Sérapis," and "Iris" for "Isis." Gosselin did make a global search and replace to correct "Sériai" to "Bélial," but the effort involved in making minor changes piecemeal is excessive. I may be able to prevail with him to make the changes one book at a time, but in order to make any further progress, I need to know whether the project is feasible at all, and that will require the opinion of a proof-listener.


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Post Posted:: June 29th, 2016, 7:10 pm 
LibriVox Admin Team

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Hi Tom, nice to have you back! :D
You're really doing this is French - amazing! :clap:

I have checked the textsource, it is okay since it is based on another text where the copyright is fine.

So what you are suggesting is essentially that your DPL is going through the text with you and marks all discrepancies and oddities and OCR errors, right? I am not sure how many French speakers we have right now, so...
However, the original text from which your pdf has been created is this one:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5452523p/f10.image
Do you think it would be okay for the DPL to check your recording against this text? It is an 1861 print edition, I would assume that there are fewer errors there to begin with?

What do you think?
I'm ready to MC this for you, but we should have a plan about this first.

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Cheers,
Ava.

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AvailleAudio.com


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Post Posted:: June 29th, 2016, 7:45 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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Howdy! Yes, I decided to take this approach to recovering some of my facility with French after a very long hiatus. My ex-wife, a professor of French, graciously critiqued the first half hour, and I was sufficiently encouraged to complete the first book. I am waiting for criticism to come in on the rest of Book 1, and then I will post it. The photocopy of the 1861 text will do nicely; thanks for tracking it down. So now I need a PL and a magic window. I will press on with the reading, but the sooner a PL can advise me the fewer blunders I will have to correct later on.

I'm glad to be working with you again.

Tom


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Post Posted:: June 29th, 2016, 11:50 pm 
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I am tempted to offer my French knowledge to DPL this...but do I understand this correctly, you would want me to tell you when a pronunciation is wrong ? Or should I not be too picky ?

As for the liaisons, I guess it sounds more fluent and more "French" if you do them, but it is not actually "wrong" if you leave them out, and people would still understand the text, so I should not mention those ?

Sonia


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Post Posted:: June 30th, 2016, 3:58 am 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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Yes, Sonia, I do by all means want you to be picky. If you hear "lay-e" for "l'aile" please correct me to "lel." (I wish I knew how to enter IPA characters in these messages.) And when it comes to the liaisons, I think they are pretty important in an epic poem. After all, the verse form itself has been totally sacrificed in a prose translation; liaisons are about all that is left to provide a sense of high dignity. However, having had only the normal conversational French instruction, I am acquainted with the less common liaisons only theoretically, and I am almost certain to use some that are either rare or ugly or downright forbidden (don't worry; I do know about aspirated "h"). I would want you to be just as picky as you please since I want the result to sound good, not simply comprehensible. I do not expect my American accent to be totally suppressed, but even a sin as venial as a loud, popping "p" or an "r" that is gargled a bit too extravagantly should be called to my attention. Of course, if there are too many such matters to worry about, you will have to exercise some restraint just for your own self-preservation.


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Post Posted:: June 30th, 2016, 4:06 am 
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chymocles wrote:
Yes, Sonia, I do by all means want you to be picky. If you hear "lay-e" for "l'aile" please correct me to "lel." (I wish I knew how to enter IPA characters in these messages.)


ok, this is a project to my liking then. Because I would have hated to be DPL and have to "let slip" a lot of important "maimings" just because I should not be too picky. If my name is down as DPL, I also take a bit of pride in that the outcome should not be too bad.

(it sounds like you are a reader after my heart)

Quote:
And when it comes to the liaisons, I think they are pretty important in an epic poem. After all, the verse form itself has been totally sacrificed in a prose translation; liaisons are about all that is left to provide a sense of high dignity.


I noticed it was prose !!!! And here I was hoping somebody like Chateaubriand would do "the real thing".

Quote:
(don't worry; I do know about aspirated "h").


well, that's already a good starting point ;)

Quote:
I would want you to be just as picky as you please since I want the result to sound good, not simply comprehensible. I do not expect my American accent to be totally suppressed, but even a sin as venial as a loud, popping "p" or an "r" that is gargled a bit too extravagantly should be called to my attention. Of course, if there are too many such matters to worry about, you will have to exercise some restraint just for your own self-preservation.


LOL ok I understand. So I bring everything to your attention, and you can choose then whether you want to leave it like that or change it, agreed ?

I take it there is one chapter already finished ? So when can I start ? I would prefer not to get the entire bulk together in one go, but more split over a few days or weeks, because I cannot concentrate that long with a long text (I mean hours and hours on end).

Looking forward to Paradise Lost in French (I read the original at university, so I am acquainted with it).

Sonia


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Post Posted:: June 30th, 2016, 7:50 am 
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From what I'm reading, your relationship will be quite symbiotic... :lol:

Thomas, since this is a recording in French, I would appreciate if you would have a summary/intro in French as well. It does not have to be long since we will link to the wikipedia entry of the book anyway. If you write one in French, please have it ready together just before cataloging. (You didn't think it would be that easy, eh? :wink:)


MW is up. You both know the way from here - I will stay out of this, for safety reasons. :wink: If you need anything, please pm me. And please, please do remember that this MC of yours does like to have projects finished. Eventually. Even if they are not perfectly perfect...

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Ava.

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Post Posted:: June 30th, 2016, 8:16 am 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
Posts: 698
So it looks as if we've got the green light. I'll get Book 1 posted as soon as I receive a critique from a local French teacher, for which I have agreed to pay (so I don't want to ignore it).

Tom


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Post Posted:: July 9th, 2016, 5:15 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
Posts: 698
I have uploaded the first book of Paradis perdu. Checker tells me, "The volume falls outside of the target range (86–92 dB)," but I have never recorded anything that did not get this rating. I wish Checker told me whether it was too loud or too soft rather than simply "outside" the proper range. If it is too soft, I can make it a little louder but not much.

Does the recording sound too bass to you? I can tweak the equalization, but I hate to mess with it without good cause since I am growing increasingly deaf.

Please let me know about liaisons that should not be there and of others that are needed but absent; bear in mind, though, that I am aiming at a "soutenu" performance. Of course vowel quality is most important, and I am quite willing to adjust it. I actually like editing sound files.

I'm not certain about the intro. Please correct the translation. In particular I was uncertain what to do with "please" at the beginning of a sentence. I used "Veuillez," but "Prière de" crossed my mind.

Thanks,

Tom


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Post Posted:: July 9th, 2016, 5:26 pm 
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Hi there

so it is starting. I will have a listen on Monday, if you don't mind.

chymocles wrote:
I have uploaded the first book of Paradis perdu. Checker tells me, "The volume falls outside of the target range (86–92 dB)," but I have never recorded anything that did not get this rating. I wish Checker told me whether it was too loud or too soft rather than simply "outside" the proper range. If it is too soft, I can make it a little louder but not much.


checker does tell you how loud it is though. Click on "Information" (right next to "Validation") below, there are all the technical details you need to know.

And if you download the very help replaygain tool for audacity, you will never again have that problem, I use it all the time, it tells me exactly how much I need to amplify.

Quote:
Please let me know about liaisons that should not be there and of others that are needed but absent; bear in mind, though, that I am aiming at a "soutenu" performance. Of course vowel quality is most important, and I am quite willing to adjust it. I actually like editing sound files.


I'll give you my honest opinion :) but some liaisons are optional you know

Quote:
I'm not certain about the intro. Please correct the translation. In particular I was uncertain what to do with "please" at the beginning of a sentence. I used "Veuillez," but "Prière de" crossed my mind.


maybe this helps, the French project of Lettres persanes uses this sentence: Ceci est un enregistrement LibriVox. Tous nos enregistrements appartiennent au domaine public. Pour vous renseigner à notre sujet ou pour participer, rendez-vous sur LibriVox POINT org.

need to sleep....

Sonia


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Post Posted:: July 9th, 2016, 6:07 pm 
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Tom,

I have put the French disclaimer into the first post. Please use this one.
Also, I have entered your first file into the MW - check the filename again, it needs to end with _128kb.mp3.

Have fun you two! :D

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Ava.

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Post Posted:: July 10th, 2016, 5:10 pm 

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I have changed the name and am uploading it now. I meant to change the name in the MW too, but I can't get in. Maybe I have forgotten some part of the magic.

Tom


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Post Posted:: July 10th, 2016, 6:16 pm 

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I also changed the identity of the text I am using: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5452523p/f10.image.

This is the text you found for me, apparently the one on which the other was based and consequently more reliable.

Tom


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Post Posted:: July 11th, 2016, 10:17 am 
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Hi Tom,

so I finally plodded my way through the first chapter Btw why is this chapter 0 ? :hmm:

Pooh, this was harder than I thought, it took me nearly 4 hours to listen to it all and note down my observations. Maybe it would have been easier to have done smaller chunks of only half an hour maximum. Definitely easier for me, I feel a bit dizzy now.

Well, don't get a shock because it looks like a long list, but many things were the same error and not all need to be corrected maybe. Just let me know what you think, and if you prefer less picky, please say so. You told me to be picky and note everything down, so that's what I did.

First some praise though, I think your accent is really really good for a non-native speaker. (don't let the long list discourage you) And you talk quite clearly and not too fast so one can understand very well. Although, at times it is a bit too loud for comfort and at other times too soft to understand. Maybe you could manually adjust the volume at some places, since you see it in Audacity, how loud it is, with the peaks.

I extremely love your voice of thunder that you sometimes use. :9: Quite expressive, which helps to understand the text. Also speaking in character makes it very lively. I like especially Satan’s pep talk at the 28th minute ! :mrgreen:

Now to my corrections:

> the intro is not 100% the same than stated in your first post, for example you don’t say the entire name of Chateaubriand. Not sure whether that is a must, but at least stay consistent throughout the project and maybe amend the first post then.

Now the biggest chunk: the pronunciations. So, I noted everything that I found strange, because you told me I should be picky, but you can decide whether you want to leave it or not.

> at 2:36: "prophétie": this word is pronounced "prophé-sie", even though there is a "t"
> at 2:52: again "prophétie"
> at 4:03: "te plaisent d’avantage": I hear “ne plaisa d’avantage”
> at 4:40: “avec tes puissantes ailes“: you say: “ses“
> at 7:07: “plus de colère“: here you need to pronounce the “s“ in plus
> at 11:55: “qu’est-ce autre chose que“: you said one “que“ too many
> at 12:52: “avec plus d’espoir“: here again, you need to pronounce the “s“ in plus
> at 18:26: there is never liaison with “et“, neither before nor after the word (this was the first of many instances where you do that, in the beginning of the text you mostly didn't do it and then towards the end you started that) it’s probably too much to correct them all now in this chapter, but maybe for the next chapters you could remember it
> at 18:30: “de plusieurs arpents“: liaison missing here
> at 18:50: “Satan égalait“: the way you make the liaison here, by making a pause between the two words and saying “négalait“, it sounds as if the verb was negated. I think I would make a glottal stop after “Satan“ and leave the nasal “an“ in without liaison. Not sure if there is an actual rule for that, but it feels more right to me since it takes away the ambiguity
> at 19:20: “écorce d’écaille“: you say “écaillé“ (no pronounced “é“ at the end here)
> at 20:52: “en haut“: never liaison with “haut“, it’s aspirated “h“
> at 21:20: “colline arrachée du Pelore“: you say “de“
> at 21:29: “qui là concevant le feu”: because you make a pause after “qui“, the “là“ which follows sounds like the feminine article “la“ which confused me a bit while listening. The pause would be better like this: “qui là [pause] concevant le feu“ (which THERE, …., are hurled into the sky)
> at 30:23: “sous la coupole de l’enfer“: I hear: “sur“ instead of “sous“
> at 30:28: “environnantes flammes“: you say: “envi-rantes“ instead of “envi-ron-nantes“
> at 31:27: “siégeaient“: you say “siégeraient“ (wrong has to be past tense instead of conditional)
> at 31:36: no liaison with “et“
> at 34:45: “Géhenne“: I would say it with French G (more like a J)
> at 38:48: no liaison with “et“
> at 40:22: “plutôt que sous des formes humaines“: you omitted “sous“
> at 40:51: no liaison with “et“
> at 41:25: no liaison with “et“
> at 41:31: no liaison with “et“
> at 43:12: “celtique“: read with “s“ instead of “k“ at the beginning
> at 43:25: no liaison with “et“
> at 44:10: “clairons“: you say “clarions“
> at 44.35: no liaison with “et“
> at 45:52: “ou à une retraite“: I hear: “ou aucune retraite“
> at 46:12: no liaison with “et“
> at 46:53: “son regard expérimenté”: I hear an s-liaison here
> at 47:45: no liaison with “et“
> at 47:48: no liaison with “et“
> at 52:56: “ce qui nous tenta”: I think you say “ce qui nous attenta“
> at 53:34: “n’a vaincu qu’à moitié“: you said “à la moitié“
> at 56:32: “pillèrent“: pronounced with mute “ll“
> at 57:40: “éclusée”: you say “exclusée”
> at 57:47: “minérai”: you say “minéraille”, it's "minérè" (not sure how to write this, the ending is like the word "c'est")
> at 59:30: “pavé nivellé”: you say “payé”
> at 59:34: “pendent”: you say “pendant” (here it’s the mute plural ending –ent)
> at 1:03:28: no liaison with “et“
> at 1:05.12: no liaison with “et“

I believe that was it for now...*collapses*

Sonia


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