[CHANGED] voltaire name in catalog

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hugh
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Post by hugh » July 31st, 2008, 11:50 am


In your catalog, I found "François-Marie Arouet de Voltaire", wich is an amazing
wrong name!
In french, "de" (in lowercases only) is a mark of nobility (except for writers!
cf. the writer Honoré de Balzac). Voltaire was not a noble, and his ideas were
quite revolutionary!

His pen name was Voltaire, and then, he was nicknamed Voltaire, "nicknamed" =
"dit" (literally: "said" - "dite" for a female).

Plus, he has two first names : "François" and "Marie", and not only one
"François-Marie". Then he was François Marie, and not François-Marie (his
friends called him François!). Marie his a female first name (ie Mary/Maria), a
catholic traditional second name for boys in France.

Then, he was François Marie Arouet "dit" Voltaire and not "de" Voltaire (eg.
other french writers: Jean-Baptiste Poquelin dit Molière, Sidonie Gabrielle
Colette dite Colette, etc.).

It concerns items 2 to 6 in the list of the page
http://librivox.org/newcatalog/search.php?title=&author=Voltaire&action=Search.

Kind regards,

Jean-Pierre B.
sounds authoritative to me!
Last edited by hugh on September 11th, 2008, 5:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by russiandoll » July 31st, 2008, 12:24 pm

Well, hold your horses...

As it happens, I'm reading a biography of Voltaire at the moment ('Voltaire Almighty - a life in pursuit of freedom', by Roger Pearson, 2005). He was, according to this, François-Marie Arouet, with hyphen (I don't know how standardised the orthography of his own time would have been about the presence or absence of it, however; the names were those of his [possibly not biological] father and his mother, and also those of his godfather and -mother).

Then (ch.4)
...he changed his name to Arouet de Voltaire, which is first recorded on 12 June 1718 as the signature in his letter to an English earl requesting the loan of a horse. Later, in November, after the success of Œdipe, he became simply 'Voltaire', or, less simply, 'Monsieur de Voltaire'.
So I think your correspondent is in error. But what the 'correct' name to put him under in the catalogue is is another question - he doesn't seem ever to have used 'François-Marie Arouet de Voltaire', but it does cover all the bases.
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Post by hugh » August 7th, 2008, 7:38 pm

well, wikipedia/fr agrees:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire

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Post by Jc » August 7th, 2008, 7:48 pm

Better ask Ezwa about this.

The Wikipedia article has both Francois Marie and Francois-Marie, but had "dit Voltaire", which is also what I've always learned, for what it's worth.
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Post by russiandoll » August 8th, 2008, 2:55 am

Oh, yes, interesting! I didn't, of course, mean that Jean-Pierre B. was in error in thinking that 'dit' Voltaire was a correct, or even the normal, way of putting 'F(-)M Arouet, known as Voltaire' in French - just that the catalogue's 'de' is not a mistake for 'dit', and that he did use 'de Voltaire' as part of his name, sometimes, despite not being a nobleman.

But 'dit' strikes me as peculiarly French (for a multilingual catalogue) and isn't actually part of the name per se: French Wikipedia also has, for example, Munro, Hector Hugh, dit Saki, and I don't suppose we'll be cataloguing Saki like that.

That made me wonder what we did catalogue him as - just 'Saki', it seems. So... just 'Voltaire'? Or 'Voltaire (François[-]Marie Arouet)'?

Oh, I'm glad it's not my job :wink:
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Post by ezwa » August 8th, 2008, 3:09 pm

I don't know who is in the right or in the wrong but, in the LOC, in most instances, "Voltaire" is found "by itself".
"Voltaire, François Marie Arouet de," is found too but with no texts directly linked to it and no hyphen in the name.

Gallica2 lists him as "Voltaire" but two instances of the name (as in our catalogue at present) can be found here and there.

As far as author names are concerned, we're going by what the LOC does, aren't we? So, I'd go for "Voltaire, François Marie Arouet de," (no hyphen).
Those looking for "Voltaire" would have no trouble finding him and the rest of his name would still there.

What do you think?

EDIT: a few googlebooks have him listed, full name, as in the LOC.
Ezwa

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Post by hugh » August 8th, 2008, 4:34 pm

i think "dit" istead of "de"... "de" means noble, and voltaire was not....

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Post by Jc » August 8th, 2008, 8:49 pm

hugh wrote:i think "dit" istead of "de"... "de" means noble, and voltaire was not....
Actually, no, but that's beside the point.
wikipedia wrote:Contrairement à une idée reçue, la particule ne peut en aucun cas être prise comme une marque de noblesse (pas plus d'ailleurs que son absence empêche d'être noble). En effet, la particule atteste initialement l'origine ou la propriété (génitif). Conséquence : certains propriétaires ou roturiers peuvent en posséder une sans pour autant être nobles

Pierre-Augustin Caron de Beaumarchais (où Caron est le patronyme et Beaumarchais le nom de terre)

A contrario, certaines familles d’authentique noblesse n’ont jamais arboré la précieuse particule :

le baron Gros
le duc Pasquier
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Post by ezwa » August 9th, 2008, 12:46 am

hugh wrote:i think "dit" istead of "de"... "de" means noble, and voltaire was not....
Well, the LOC doesn't have any author listed as "François Marie Arouet, dit Voltaire".
It only appears in one title. Others have "de".

Besides, he was called Mr de Voltaire.

Not that "dit Voltaire" would be wrong but, I don't think "de Voltaire" is.

EDIT: Managed to lay my hands on Le petit Robert (French dictionary) which has him as "François Marie Arouet, dit Voltaire".
Ezwa

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Post by ezwa » August 21st, 2008, 2:16 pm

Wondering if we leave Voltaire as he is in the catalogue or not?

If we do, I'll unstick this thread.
If we change something, I'll be happy to do it.


PS : The Larousse (other dictionary) also has "François Marie Arouet, dit Voltaire".
Ezwa

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Post by hugh » August 21st, 2008, 2:36 pm

i think we should change it... meant to do it... if larousse says dit voltaire, who are we to argue ;-)

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Post by ezwa » August 21st, 2008, 2:38 pm

So we go for "Voltaire, François Marie Arouet, dit", do we?
Any equivalent for "dit" in English?
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Post by ezwa » August 25th, 2008, 12:05 am

ezwa wrote: "Voltaire, François Marie Arouet, dit"
Went ahead:
Ezwa

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CarlManchester
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Post by CarlManchester » September 2nd, 2008, 5:28 am

Is "dit" not sort of like "AKA" in English?

So
"Voltaire, François Marie Arouet, dit"
wouldn't be quite right, it would be: "Arouet, François Marie, dit Voltaire". Except our standard cataolgue name should be in English, which would lead us on to "Arouet, François Marie, AKA Voltaire".

IMVHO, think the question is what people are likely to use in the search, and I don't many people will ever search for "François Marie Arouet". So I would really prefer just plain old Voltaire. Think of it like "Cher".

Cheers,
Carl.
American Psychology 1922-1947. It's the nearest thing to American Psycho that we are allowed to record.

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Post by CarlManchester » September 14th, 2008, 7:19 am

Someone's maked this resolved, but it isn't. The name is still wrong in the cataolgue, IMO.
American Psychology 1922-1947. It's the nearest thing to American Psycho that we are allowed to record.

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