Pardon my rant

Rev. Steve · Post by **Rev. Steve** » January 25th, 2006, 10:41 am

Well... real player files CAN be made into MP3 files ? it is just a very laborious practice, and probably not legal.

The folks at ?This American Life? are converting their Real Audio streams to MP3 streams this February, though because they are still streaming ? there is no net benefit to the user outside of not using that abomination called real player ? one still cannot listen to them when they are not connected to the internet unless they are willing to break the law.

vee · Post by **vee** » January 25th, 2006, 11:09 am

I guess that's a good question. I can set Audacity to record from the stereo mix, so if I just set it to playback at night and record it so I can listen to it later is that breaking the law?

Aldark · Post by **Aldark** » January 25th, 2006, 11:28 am

I stopped using Real Player about 3.5yrs ago... a complete pain in the @$$.

Funny thing... about 5yrs ago my office was ready to spend a few thousand dollars on RealServer so we could host RealPlayer format files to allow clients to watch demonstrations of how some of our hardware and software worked.

Then about 3yrs ago our Network Ops people put RealPlayer on the "do not load list" and we would have been hosed.

Yes.. yes... burn that CD.

ChipDoc · Post by **ChipDoc** » January 25th, 2006, 11:35 am

Aldark wrote:Yes.. yes... burn that CD.

And sprinkle salt upon the ashes...

vee · Post by **vee** » January 25th, 2006, 11:53 am

Thow in a little holy water and we've got a cleansing

Maybe someone should write up a how to on how to cleanse yourself of Real Player Karma.

GordMackenzie · Post by **GordMackenzie** » January 25th, 2006, 1:56 pm

ChipDoc wrote: Not everyone does this; I listen on my motorcycle and at this point it's unreasonable for me to expect to maintain a connection in that enviroment. But I can plug in my iPod and bring that anywhere! It's perfect for LibriVox, but simply won't work with NPR. So I'm here at LibriVox.

I'm pretty certain that I'm not the only one...

... Perhaps you need a "I'd rather be listening to an NPR Podcast" sticker for the back of your motorcycle...

kri · Post by **kri** » January 25th, 2006, 3:00 pm

Rev. Steve wrote:Well... real player files CAN be made into MP3 files ? it is just a very laborious practice, and probably not legal.

The folks at ?This American Life? are converting their Real Audio streams to MP3 streams this February, though because they are still streaming ? there is no net benefit to the user outside of not using that abomination called real player ? one still cannot listen to them when they are not connected to the internet unless they are willing to break the law.

Don't they sell their episodes too? I can understand if they don't want to offer their episodes as stand alone files, because they need money to keep running somehow. Public radio shows and public radio in general aren't really rolling in dough.

vee · Post by **vee** » January 25th, 2006, 6:28 pm

Well their choice of Real Player isn't what really stops us from saving. Any choice of streaming format, whether it be Real, Quicktime, or Windows Media would have locked us to listening on the internet. The thing that really annoys me is Audible.com. I've just not been that happy with their business model, but that's ok, they make their money and as long as it gets passed onto NPR, PRI and all the other public radio producers.

ChipDoc · Post by **ChipDoc** » January 25th, 2006, 7:10 pm

kri wrote:Public radio shows and public radio in general aren't really rolling in dough.

Well they'd certainly like you to think that...

I worked at our local NPR affiliate for about seven years. Though they certainly do have to beg for money, that begging is pretty substantially rewarded. I'd encourage you to contribute to your local affiliate, but don't worry that they're living on crusts of stale bread or anything...

It costs about $3million a year to keep the lights on at an NPR affiliate, and the lights ARE still on last time I checked.

ChipDoc · Post by **ChipDoc** » January 25th, 2006, 7:16 pm

vee wrote: if I just set it to playback at night and record it so I can listen to it later is that breaking the law?

No, that would fall under the Fair Use provision of copyright law. But it would be illegal if you made it available to others. Don't post it on your site and you'll be operating within the law.

This is the same principle as ripping CD tracks so you can listen to them on your iPod. That is legal, since you are doing it for your own personal use. It becomes illegal when you make them available with a file-sharing utility.

Rev. Steve · Post by **Rev. Steve** » January 26th, 2006, 12:15 am

Don't they sell their episodes too? I can understand if they don't want to offer their episodes as stand alone files, because they need money to keep running somehow. Public radio shows and public radio in general aren't really rolling in dough.

Yah ? they do. Last time I checked it was for $10.00 an episode. Not exactly in my price range. And I could get them from Audible.com if I didn?t mind Audible?s DRM, but I do.

The thing is ? I already support Public Radio ? largely because I want to support ?This American Life? as well as a few others ? but in my neighborhood, TAL comes on only at times when I am generally ? not able to be listening to the radio ? like Sunday morning.

So ? I already paid for it ? shouldn?t I be able to listen when I want to without having to pay again, and without having to sit within listing distance of a CAT 5 cable or wifi adaptor? Especially in a few months when I will likely be moving out to a VERY rural parsonage and have to give up my real internet access. Dial up. Shiver.

kri · Post by **kri** » January 26th, 2006, 3:42 am

Rev. Steve wrote:Dial up. Shiver.

Yegh.

Yeah, it's a tough situation we're in deciding how to treat all the various media that one can access through the internet and on a computer. I just hope that some day we figure out the rules, so to speak, so that we can get on with it and actually USE the technology without all this fuss and bother. Think that will ever happen? I just hope that the solution is a more open and free one; not one that caters to the big money makers.

ChipDoc · Post by **ChipDoc** » January 26th, 2006, 4:11 am

Uhhh... I hate to point this out, but someone's going to have to pay something at some point. And that means we're all going to have to pay sooner or later. I pay for the phone line. I pay for my internet connection. I pay for my hosting. That's just the way it is, and I don't spend a bunch of time griping about it.

It's called capitalism, and in this society you need some capital to do what you want. In order to get it, I trade the most valuable resource I have - time. And quite frankly it works out ok.

If everything were free, nothing would have value, and nobody would make anything.

GordMackenzie · Post by **GordMackenzie** » January 26th, 2006, 6:57 am

ChipDoc wrote:
vee wrote: if I just set it to playback at night and record it so I can listen to it later is that breaking the law?
No, that would fall under the Fair Use provision of copyright law. But it would be illegal if you made it available to others. Don't post it on your site and you'll be operating within the law.

... be very careful with that, Chip. I don't believe that is, in fact, correct. Fair use (Title 17, Chapter 1, section 107) states:

"the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright"

This is the whole principle of DRM. You are expressly NOT allowed to make unauthorized copies of a copyrighted work, except in the cases stated of the above. You'll note that "personal use" or "convenience" are NOT stated. There is no such protection under the law. Therefore Vee cannot legally make a copy of an NPR broadcast for his personal use.

Of course, it is unlikely that a court would rule against him. Here are the factors that are considered when determining if a usage if "fair":

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Since copying for personal use is decidedly non-commercial (although arguably not educational), Vee may have a point in his favor. However, if NPR is ALSO selling downloadable digital copies of its programs (which they are)... then Vee is effectively "robbing" NPR (or Audible) of revenue, as his copy is making it possible to do something that he would otherwise have to pay for (having a digital copy he could listen to at his convenience offline).

Of course, it is HIGHLY unlikely that Vee would be sued in such a case... but as far as the law is concerned, I do not believe he has the "right" to make a recording of the stream and then save it in a different format for his convenience, especially when others are paying for that same convenience.

... btw, I do not support copyright law in its current form, and I'm certainly not a lawyer... this is just my interpretation based on what I have read and understand of the copyright debate.

GordMackenzie · Post by **GordMackenzie** » January 26th, 2006, 7:07 am

ChipDoc wrote: If everything were free, nothing would have value, and nobody would make anything.

NPR programming is NOT free. It is member supported. If NPR made its programs available in downloadable distributable digital format (or "free"), it might, in fact, make MORE revenue from membership donations (as the content could reach more people across the globe). Existing members might find that service to be worth more to them, and might contribute more in return.

Trying to force "scarcity" onto a digital world might not be the best model to proceed with. Capitalism and businesses need (IMHO) to embrace the digital world and find new economic models to proceed with. Companies certainly still need to make money (or quality content won't be produced), but there is more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to make a profit.

As always, just my 2 pennies. Your mileage may vary.