Pardon my rant

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ChipDoc
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Post by ChipDoc »

GordMackenzie wrote:... be very careful with that, Chip. I don't believe that is, in fact, correct. Fair use (Title 17, Chapter 1, section 107) states:
"the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright"
This is the whole principle of DRM. You are expressly NOT allowed to make unauthorized copies of a copyrighted work, except in the cases stated of the above. You'll note that "personal use" or "convenience" are NOT stated. There is no such protection under the law. Therefore Vee cannot legally make a copy of an NPR broadcast for his personal use.
One of the very cool things about being an attorney (which I am not) is that a perfectly legitimate case can be created for either side of an argument.

For instance, this situation is substantively identical to the use of TiVO machines to record television programs. The programs themselves are digital, and you're creating a digital copy for personal use. These new digital video recorders are doing a land-office business and are being used to create copies of material which generally IS being sold in a prerecorded package - as a DVD.

But far from being considered "robbing" the original content producer of income, this practice is encouraged because it demonstrably drives the sales of the DVDs with their Value-Added content. And when you get right down to it, if vee decides he really enjoys these programs, he might well decide to purchase them and save himself the trouble of converting them from the stream.

To use an example from my own life, I love the NPR program Sunday Baroque. I can listen to it via RealStreaming, but I refuse to install that on my machine. Instead I record it directly off the air and put that into my iPod. BUT my local affiliate airs only 2 of the 4 hour-long segments each Sunday. If it were available, and not outrageously overpriced, I'd happily purchase this thing every week.
GordMackenzie wrote:I do not believe he has the "right" to make a recording of the stream and then save it in a different format for his convenience, especially when others are paying for that same convenience.
I believe that he does. In the world of practical reality, the issue hinges of course on where the money lies. The recent example of the RIAA shooting themselves in the foot with their too-aggressive defense of their rights actually driving revenues DOWN stands as a warning to others who refuse to embrace new business models. The even more recent example of Sony's installation of rootkits on their CDs and the public reaction to it is another. Considering the fact that the vast bulk of NPR's revenue stream depends on the goodwill of the listening public, I think they'd be reticent to try to interpret the law in a way which would adversely impact those listeners. NPR is obviously making money already on the Audible sales. They aren't going to be too aggressive in this instance.

Considering the malleability of the Law in this area, there's really no "right" or "wrong" here. Both perspectives are valid.
-Chip
Retired to Colorado
The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.
~Mark Twain
vee
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Post by vee »

Just to throw in something else. I had been under the impression that "Fair Use" actually isn't a right. Technically the copyright holder has all rights to themselves, and Fair Use is simply a legal defense for circumventing that right. I guess part of the problem is that much of our copyright law is designed for written work, and we're trying to apply the same model to audio/video and digital distribution.
Chris Vee
"You never truly understand something until you can explain it to your grandmother." - Albert Einstein
kri
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Post by kri »

ChipDoc wrote:Uhhh... I hate to point this out, but someone's going to have to pay something at some point. And that means we're all going to have to pay sooner or later. I pay for the phone line. I pay for my internet connection. I pay for my hosting. That's just the way it is, and I don't spend a bunch of time griping about it.

It's called capitalism, and in this society you need some capital to do what you want. In order to get it, I trade the most valuable resource I have - time. And quite frankly it works out ok.

If everything were free, nothing would have value, and nobody would make anything.
I agree partially with the paying part. Someone has to pay, and someone always pays. It's not always the viewers who pay. Another issue that goes along with that I think (which doesn't have to do with paying money) is whether or not to control the internet. Perhaps I should not start that discussion though.
Rev. Steve
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Post by Rev. Steve »

I think that when we are talking about making a copy of a recording, we need to be VERY careful about not using the word ?theft? or ?stolen,? for three reasons:

First, the supreme court has explicitly stated that making, and even distributing, copies of a copyrighted work is not ?theft? but infringement. Some of them are pretty smart ? and they are all pretty familiar with the law, if they say it isn?t theft ? it is not.

Second, and this is where the RIAA gets confused, is that in order to show that a copyright holder was deprived of their rightful compensation, you have to show that the person making the copy of the copyrighted work would have purchased a legitimate copy. Clearly in many many cases, that is simply not the case.

There is no way, I am going to pay $10.00 for an episode of ?This American Life? so when (if I were to do that) I make a copy of a TAL episode, I am not depriving the copyright holder of anything ? he wouldn?t have received my $10.00 from my not purchasing the show ANYWAY. As GordMackenzie Very deftly pointed out, scarcity is not a meaningful concept in a digital world.

Third, ?Theft? is a pretty emotionally laden word, that when used improperly does a LOT of harm, not only to the conversation, but to the folks who have it leveled against them, as well as those who do the leveling.
GordMackenzie
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Post by GordMackenzie »

Rev. Steve wrote:
Second, and this is where the RIAA gets confused, is that in order to show that a copyright holder was deprived of their rightful compensation, you have to show that the person making the copy of the copyrighted work would have purchased a legitimate copy. Clearly in many many cases, that is simply not the case.
While this is true, it does not get around copyright infringement. I don't believe, given the current laws, that the copyright holder has to show that they were deprived of their rightful compensation... on the contrary, the person who made the unlicensed copy has to prove fair use. The burden of proof is on the consumer, and not the copyright holder.

I believe if we go back to the betamax case of 1984 (Sony v. Universal, which argued that Video Tape Recorders should be made illegal because they allow copyright infringement), the argument was that the public could make recordings of "copyrighted motion pictures" and then watch them "off-the-air". There was no major concern at the time that people would "distribute" their recordings... it was the recordings themselves that were the infringement.

So, while it may be counter-productive for copyright holders to sue those that make personal copies for copyright infringement... I do not believe that they could not, or that they might not win such suits... but the "damages" in such cases would be frivolous at best.

The current law does not consider "personal use" to be the same as "fair use".

(By the way, I used the word "robbed" in my previous post advisedly... I was merely echoing the rhetoric of the RIAA and MPAA. Copyright infringement is certainly not "robbery" or "theft" as they are legally defined).
Gord Mackenzie
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Rev. Steve
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Post by Rev. Steve »

I certainly wouldn?t disagree with you. I am sure that some one making copies for their own use could be, and undoubtedly HAVE been sued for infringement.

I was not making a legal argument ? I?m not qualified to make a legal argument ? the point I am making is more ethical than legal. And that is an important distinction to make: Just because something is illegal, does not make it unethical ? and vice versa.
GordMackenzie
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Post by GordMackenzie »

Rev. Steve wrote: I was not making a legal argument ? I?m not qualified to make a legal argument ? the point I am making is more ethical than legal. And that is an important distinction to make: Just because something is illegal, does not make it unethical ? and vice versa.
Agreed!

But when a law is unethical, it should be changed... don't you think?
Gord Mackenzie
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thistlechick
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Post by thistlechick »

GordMackenzie wrote: Agreed!

But when a law is unethical, it should be changed... don't you think?
What? You mean like Disney pushing to have the copyright laws changed in their favor to protect Mickey Mouse? Bad Disney! =P
~ Betsie
Multiple projects lead to multiple successes!
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