Credit for editors of plays / DRs

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RobMarland
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Post by RobMarland » January 19th, 2019, 4:51 pm

At the moment, it doesn't seem like there is a formalised way for editors of plays and dramatic readings to get credit in the recordings themselves.

For a while, I have been including a editor credit in the text cast lists of the plays I BC, which is included on the catalogue page. But our recordings end up in different places, and I think it would be nice to have a credit in the recording too. Especially as we routinely give spoken credit to all the readers.

I know the Project Template Generator outputs guidelines for readers of books (optional location and website) but the play/DR output lacks this. Maybe amending the output would be overkill here, and it can just be a decision of BCs/editors on whether or not to include it. But I am interested in what people think.
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Post by annise » January 19th, 2019, 5:22 pm

It's hard to know where to draw a line in the credit giving - we all (I hope)realise that there are people never mentioned without whom there would be no LibriVox, There is no reason though why the BCs could not ask the editor to read a voice credit.

Anne

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Post by Availle » January 19th, 2019, 5:28 pm

In the recordings?

I don't like this idea.

I do get it though: editing is one of the most time-consuming jobs you can have at a play and especially DR. It's understandable that there are people who want to be recognised publicly. (Personally, I don't care for that.)

- Where do you want to put that information? At the beginning of each act/chapter? In the "dramatis personae" list? As a listener I would find that annoying, especially in a DR where some people already struggle keeping the main characters' voices apart in the beginning and where there are often many editors.

- Many people on LV do non-recording stuff like editing, BCing, DPLing... because they can't or don't want to record. Are you forcing them to record a character credit?

- Who is choosing if an editor is getting credit? The BC of the whole 38 chapter book? Or the editor who did the 5 minute prologue and then bowed out because it was too much work? You would also have to be consistent over all DRs/plays I think because it would be weird otherwise (maybe, not sure about that).

- And speaking of DPLs and BCs and MCs - where is their credit in the recording? And the cover maker's? And Anne's, who will have to deal with all the complaints because Shakespeare really needs to have British voices only dontchaknow?? Hugh McGuire for coming up with LV? The DPLs/BCs/MCs do get credit, on the catalog page only, that doesn't even transfer to the archive page or the cover or wherever else people may be looking at our recordings.

So, overall: Nah. As a personal opinion, without admin hat.
Cheers,
Ava.

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RobMarland
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Post by RobMarland » January 19th, 2019, 7:46 pm

Thanks for the replies. Because Ava's answer included points about credit for other types of volunteers, I have shared my thoughts on her response and about credit in general.

Availle wrote:
January 19th, 2019, 5:28 pm
In the recordings?

I don't like this idea.

I do get it though: editing is one of the most time-consuming jobs you can have at a play and especially DR. It's understandable that there are people who want to be recognised publicly. (Personally, I don't care for that.)
Some of us want credit for our work and some don't, which is fine. I do think there is value, though, in giving people the option to receive credit where they want it. For one, I expect it will encourage people to volunteer and to stick around. We give credit to readers in the recording and in the catalogue, and to MCs, BCs and DPLs in the catalogue: that is a good thing. If we didn't do that, I imagine some people who perform those roles would choose not to.

So I am suggesting editors be credited in the spirit of encouraging people to volunteer for that role; because I would personally like to be credited for my editing as well as for my reading; and because I think the current system of credit could be improved to reflect how LV works today.

Availle wrote:
January 19th, 2019, 5:28 pm
- Where do you want to put that information? At the beginning of each act/chapter? In the "dramatis personae" list? As a listener I would find that annoying, especially in a DR where some people already struggle keeping the main characters' voices apart in the beginning and where there are often many editors.
For the reasons you mention, I think at the end of the last section makes sense. Anyone who wants to skip the credits could do so. Then, it wouldn't be any different to the credits of a radio show or many commercial audiobooks, which often credit the producer and other relevant people at the end.

I could also point out that we currently give chapter readers the option of stating their city, website, and recording date (some put that at the end where it can be skipped, others at the beginning). Presumably we settled on that policy early on because it was thought to encourage readers to volunteer. An editor credit seems much the same.

Availle wrote:
January 19th, 2019, 5:28 pm
- Many people on LV do non-recording stuff like editing, BCing, DPLing... because they can't or don't want to record. Are you forcing them to record a character credit?
With respect, "forcing" is a bit strong: I did not suggest that, and my original question does not imply I think it would be necessary or even a good idea.

However, at the moment, editors have no credit at all. So I don't think they would object to the idea of having the opportunity to claim it, or to not getting the credit if they don't want to record it.

Availle wrote:
January 19th, 2019, 5:28 pm
- Who is choosing if an editor is getting credit? The BC of the whole 38 chapter book? Or the editor who did the 5 minute prologue and then bowed out because it was too much work? You would also have to be consistent over all DRs/plays I think because it would be weird otherwise (maybe, not sure about that).
This is something we already have to deal with when deciding if a DPL gets credit. Often, more than one PL works on a project, or PL duties are shared with a BC. If a DPL proof-listens to some of a project before stopping, and someone else takes over, at some point someone is having to decide which person gets the catalogue DPL credit. This is not a perfect system and could be improved, perhaps by allowing multiple DPLs to be credited in the catalogue.

But basically, I don't think it is complicated to give people proper credit if we decide it's something we care about.

Availle wrote:
January 19th, 2019, 5:28 pm
- And speaking of DPLs and BCs and MCs - where is their credit in the recording? And the cover maker's? And Anne's, who will have to deal with all the complaints because Shakespeare really needs to have British voices only dontchaknow?? Hugh McGuire for coming up with LV? The DPLs/BCs/MCs do get credit, on the catalog page only, that doesn't even transfer to the archive page or the cover or wherever else people may be looking at our recordings.
What can I say? I value the work of other volunteers, whatever role they take. You are broadening it out here and my answer, again, is that I think people should get more credit if they want it. The fact that you brought this up when I only asked about editor credit suggests that you agree that some people are not getting enough credit.

Nobody is likely to suggest that Hugh be credited in the recordings (least of all, I imagine, Hugh himself): he is already credited on the About page, which seems right. Cover makers are credited on their pdfs, which seems about right too. I do think admins could and should get more credit: probably not in recordings as their work is more general, but perhaps on the About page. And if BCs and MCs were to get credit in the recordings, I wouldn't necessarily think this was a bad idea, just as I don't think it would be a bad idea for editors to get credit in the catalogue.
Rob Marland
● NEW! A Woman Is a Weathercock by Nathan Field. A bawdy Jacobean comedy.
● DONE Amends for Ladies by Nathan Field.
● DONE The Doves' Nest & Other Stories by Katherine Mansfield.

mightyfelix
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Post by mightyfelix » January 20th, 2019, 12:45 am

I think it wouldn't be too difficult, if editor and BC on a project agree, to include an editor credit at the end of the recording. It wouldn't necessarily have to be spoken by the editor, as perhaps they prefer not to record. But maybe the narrator could give them a quick shout out? "End of The Taming of the Shrew, by William Shakespeare. Edited by John Doe." For instance.

As an editor, though, what is more important to me than a spoken credit is the work appearing on my reader page. For the most part, I only edit works that I'm really interested and invested in. Things that I'd like to share with others. I sometimes will point people to my reader page as a way of sharing literature with them that I have enjoyed. I believe that this, at least, is quite easy. I think that all it requires is for the BC to add the editor to the MW along with each reader. I'm not suggesting that we make this standard practice for all DRs, but maybe have it as an option, if the editor wants the work to appear on their reader page.

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Post by Availle » January 20th, 2019, 3:02 am

RobMarland wrote:
January 19th, 2019, 7:46 pm
What can I say? I value the work of other volunteers, whatever role they take. You are broadening it out here and my answer, again, is that I think people should get more credit if they want it. The fact that you brought this up when I only asked about editor credit suggests that you agree that some people are not getting enough credit.
Ah, now you're putting words in my mouth - I think we're even in this respect. :D

I'm saying that LV runs on hundreds of people who will, because of the nature of their contribution here, never be credited anywhere.
I'm saying that there are many readers and other volunteers on here who come here and choose not to divulge their real names (for whatever reason) and will thus not be publicly recognised other than through that pseudonym. (*)

I am NOT saying that these contributions are not worthy of credit or should not be credited.

I'm saying that, for editors, IN the recording is not the right place in my opinion.
On the catalog page of the completed work, as an addition to the cast list of readers, just as we do with multiple DPLs is, in my view, perfectly fine.


(*) I myself use a pseudonym on here and only a handful of friends know who this really is, but again, that's me: I don't care much for pats on the back. In general I think that the internet is not the right place looking for validation and recognition. People on the internet don't care about other people on the internet, and if they do, it's for 5 minutes only.
Cheers,
Ava.

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annise
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Post by annise » January 20th, 2019, 4:45 am

As an editor, though, what is more important to me than a spoken credit is the work appearing on my reader page. For the most part, I only edit works that I'm really interested and invested in. Things that I'd like to share with others. I sometimes will point people to my reader page as a way of sharing literature with them that I have enjoyed. I believe that this, at least, is quite easy. I think that all it requires is for the BC to add the editor to the MW along with each reader. I'm not suggesting that we make this standard practice for all DRs, but maybe have it as an option, if the editor wants the work to appear on their reader page.
That really is not an option - your reader's page shows things you have read, not things you have edited or PLed or made covers for or m4bs or BCed or MCed and as such provide listeners who love/hate your readings to find works you have read.
Adding you as a reader in a dramatic work because you edited it would just not be acceptable.

Anne

There are other ways you can tell your friends than the reader's page - if you sign on to Internet Archive as a member, you can make projects as favourites and then filter the LV catalogue and you get something like this https://archive.org/details/fav-raymk

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Post by mightyfelix » January 20th, 2019, 7:47 am

annise wrote:
January 20th, 2019, 4:45 am
That really is not an option - your reader's page shows things you have read, not things you have edited or PLed or made covers for or m4bs or BCed or MCed and as such provide listeners who love/hate your readings to find works you have read.
Adding you as a reader in a dramatic work because you edited it would just not be acceptable.
Oh! Well.... I don't want to get anyone in trouble... :oops: But I went to check my reader page recently and saw that the Mikado is listed there, although all I did for it was edit. I didn't know that there was such a line in the sand regarding this. :oops:

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Post by moniaqua » January 20th, 2019, 8:42 am

My 2 cents on the matter:

On every film you get a real big cast list at the end. Editing is a painstaking task, especially for dramas. On a normal recording it usually isn't mentioned because the one who records is the editor; in a drama it is different.

I am aware that there are tons of volunteers who don't get any credits. But I feel it is nice to mention people who do more work on a recording, like BC, MC, DPL, cover maker, and editors (did I forget some roles?) BC, MC and DPL are mentioned on the catalog site, readers are credited on the catalog site and in the recording. On plays, it seems to depend on the BC/MC. Cast list usually is in the beginning and sometimes on the catalog page. I don't really see why an editor shouldn't be mentioned there and I like the idea
mightyfelix wrote:
January 20th, 2019, 12:45 am
But maybe the narrator could give them a quick shout out? "End of The Taming of the Shrew, by William Shakespeare. Edited by John Doe."
After all, an editor in a play does way more than I did reading some - mentioned - minor roles! For me this is just a matter of courtesy, like kind of a little "thank you for the work you did".

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Post by Availle » January 20th, 2019, 8:55 am

Making a full cast list before cataloging (which may or may not include the DPLs and editors) is the responsibility of the BC.

I think it is nice to have it written down on the catalog and archive pages because the only thing you can see as readers on the catalog page is "group" in each section, which even I find unsatisfactory.
Cheers,
Ava.

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RobMarland
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Post by RobMarland » January 20th, 2019, 9:41 am

Availle wrote:
January 20th, 2019, 3:02 am
In general I think that the internet is not the right place looking for validation and recognition. People on the internet don't care about other people on the internet, and if they do, it's for 5 minutes only.
I don't agree and find this assessment rather dismissive and depressing. Since I am unlikely to venture outside of the main sections of the forum in future, I will sign off by saying that I think we have a good rule at Librivox when it comes to offering criticism of people's recordings, and that it would be a good rule to apply it in other situations too. Frankly, there are more constructive ways of disagreeing with a suggestion.
Rob Marland
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● DONE Amends for Ladies by Nathan Field.
● DONE The Doves' Nest & Other Stories by Katherine Mansfield.

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Post by Elizabby » January 24th, 2019, 5:45 am

mightyfelix wrote:
January 20th, 2019, 12:45 am
I think it wouldn't be too difficult, if editor and BC on a project agree, to include an editor credit at the end of the recording. It wouldn't necessarily have to be spoken by the editor, as perhaps they prefer not to record. But maybe the narrator could give them a quick shout out? "End of The Taming of the Shrew, by William Shakespeare. Edited by John Doe." For instance.
This would be easy to do, and would just require the narrator to add a bit to the final outro. I'd never thought of it before, probably because in my experience most editors seem to also read a small part, and as the BC I try to read at least one section in most of the books I BC as well. But if people want to do this it wouldn't be difficult.

It strikes me as something that BCs and editors could work out on a case by case basis. I don't think it necessarily needs to be 100% consistent across all projects - rather like sometimes the Cast List is a separate file and sometimes it isn't. It could vary according to the needs of the project. Currently I tend to list the editor in the Cast List section of the summary, but I'm open to changing this.

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Post by TriciaG » January 24th, 2019, 6:51 am

My humble opinion:

Editor(s) in the summary or cast list: A-OK, and up to the BC.

Editor(s) in the section assignments: Not OK. Those are used to find readers. Putting the editors in during the production is a sub-optimal fix to the problem of assigning editing responsibilities when BCs are not editing their own projects. (See long paragraph below.)

Audio credit: I don't like the idea of having it in the audio. But if anywhere, I'd say in the audio cast list / DP and recorded by the narrator. I'd rather have it there than in some other spot where it would just be tacked on.
"End of The Taming of the Shrew, by William Shakespeare. Edited by John Doe." For instance.
I don't like this. It sounds like John Doe edited the printed text, rather than stitching together all the parts. (I suppose it could say, "Audio edited by...")

And it is true that most of the editing happens after the recordings are done, so would the narrator come back and record the editor credits? Depends - sometimes the narrator disappears. And I agree that we wouldn't want the editor(s) to have to record the voice credit. In the DP, the characters? Yes. But we don't need to know the sound of the voice of the editor(s).

When the workflow was designed, dramatic works were a very small part of the total workload here. It was mostly plays, and the BC did the editing. Now, it seems, people want almost every fiction work turned into a dramatic reading. LOL! And the BCs seem to find the editing to be a lot more work on DRs, and parcel it out to others rather than doing it themselves. (Yes, there are cases where the BC cannot physically do the editing work. But that seems to be an exceptional circumstance.) Yes, editing is a lot of work, and the editors deserve kudos for doing it. Perhaps when we do another redesign/update of the workflow at some undetermined point in the future, a line could be included in the left column to give editors credit, like DPLs have now. (But that doesn't work with more than one editor or DPL, and I cannot imagine redesigning it such that more than one editor/DPL could be listed. Hmmm.)

OK, enough rambling. Ever onward...
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Post by TriciaG » January 24th, 2019, 6:56 am

I think it is nice to have it written down on the catalog and archive pages because the only thing you can see as readers on the catalog page is "group" in each section, which even I find unsatisfactory.
I agree to a point. I also like the cast list on the catalog page. But I don't like cast lists on the Archive page. The summary/intro blurb at Archive specifically says, "for reader information... go to the catalog page for this project". Thus on any group project, I remove the sometimes painfully long list of readers and put in "Read by LibriVox volunteers" at the start of the Archive blurb, like it used to be in the old days. ;)

But this is getting off topic. :)
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JayKitty76
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Post by JayKitty76 » January 24th, 2019, 3:18 pm

Question: Would it be allowed if a BC wanted an editor to have a voice credit for a specific project?
I kind of like the idea of editors getting voice credits, especially because they do so much work for us..
And once I finish all my tasks here, I'd like to start a play/DR, and I sort of like the idea of giving the editor credit...
With due respect to everything everyone else has said.

Best,
JayKitty
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