Commercial Use of Librivox Recordings

Comments about LibriVox? Suggestions to improve things? News?
schrm
Posts: 1760
Joined: February 10th, 2018, 11:02 am
Location: Austria

Post by schrm » July 28th, 2018, 9:57 am

so, i thought of writing a way too long text about my thoughts about the huge list of points in this thread, read that hugh plans to weigh in and thought...uh nay, im just a rather new user.

but to add my two cents, now that positioning got clear:
i chose to stay anonymous with a nickname, because i want to strengthen this aspect of giving away to the pd.
in most countries, an unknown artist who gets known as the creator of a work defines automatically the copyright situation - so, staying anonymously helps my will to give it away.
i just mention this, because i realized, that even as a new user, i can relate to this idea of reading for the pd.

another aspect, which i totally understand btw, is when someone reads also for a living.
and that that can influence hobby-works, creations for free and so on is quite natural!
but, as i bought a scarf by some hobby-silkpainter, to give it away as a christmas gift: do we have to pay her for the present? and if she will sell it or donate it, will we have to pay the hobby silk-painting artist anew?

i think, my thoughts on this are best described by availles statements:
Availle wrote:
July 13th, 2018, 6:14 pm
I am on the fence with this one, really. :?
(...)
On the other hand, I just checked the one recording of mine that ended up as a CD on amazon: Madame Butterfly has roughly 34.000 views/downloads on archive to this day. If I count 1$ per download "for me", then the guy on amazon, selling the CD for 19.95$ would have to sell 1700 copies to "break even". Now, that's not going to happen... :lol:
(...)
So, for me, it's not worth it. I release my recordings and let them go and find new homes. Most of them end up being loved by "worthy" people anyway.
(...)
If you don't like your recordings to end up being sold by people who try to make a quick buck, then librivoxing is not for you. Probably the whole idea of volunteering is not for you then - most organisations who use volunteers make some sort of profit out of their engagement.
i want to add something here:
i am recording with a 15 euro microphone and i dont have equipment or skills to alter my recordings to a professional level.
if someone does that and sells that, well..
i wholeheartedly feel two emotions with this.
(also, a little proud to be honest. but that's just one side..)

that said, i want to hint to this statement:
tovarisch wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 4:32 am
Are you saying that what you placed in PD does not stay there? Is it not free still? It is the consumer's responsibility to avoid wasting money on something that is also available for free. You can help that by informing the consumer.
i found librivox while searching for free audiobooks.
i am a worker, audiobooks are expensive, i even didnt like to hear books because of my former work as a telephonist: listening to someone is stressy, hard work and no fun. i thought, at least.
and then, getting a totally different job, learning anew also dominant aspects and thinking for 20 years...
a co-worker gave me an old book with difficult to read letters and asked me to read for her.
another co-worker told me about the books he got for free, and is listening to.
i bought my first audiobook and i loved it..
and then, google presented me with.... librivox forums.

librivox isnt well known around my area, i think.
we could all mention lv ocassionally in different social media, when suiting the topic.
we could all do more, to avoid others dying as "stupid", hating "the listening process as work" people (like i was myself until i found out, lv is just what i was looking for)

we could start an own thread: tipps and possibilities for advertising lv for free?

/reader/12275


bc gruppe: sammlung prosa, trotzkopf
duo: rousseau
en: bc manners and rules

sing "The First Nowell" viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75979

mightyfelix
Posts: 4234
Joined: August 7th, 2016, 6:39 pm

Post by mightyfelix » July 28th, 2018, 8:46 pm

Peter Why wrote:
July 28th, 2018, 7:55 am
I'm in the middle of a very long solo (estimated 47 hours of recording). I'm strongly tempted to find out how to put it on audible at a reasonable price (as well as leaving it here for free, of course), as I'm certain that someone else will be selling it as their own.

Peter
I wouldn't blame you. Honestly, I think this is the best suggestion anyone has made on this thread yet.

mightyfelix
Posts: 4234
Joined: August 7th, 2016, 6:39 pm

Post by mightyfelix » July 28th, 2018, 8:52 pm

schrm wrote:
July 28th, 2018, 9:57 am
we could start an own thread: tipps and possibilities for advertising lv for free?
I have some business cards that I print on my own printer at home and give away to my friends and family if audiobooks come up in conversation (as they frequently do). My business cards have a LV logo on one side that I got from the wiki, and on the other side, they have the address to my reader page and our "how to volunteer" page.

annise
LibriVox Admin Team
Posts: 31835
Joined: April 3rd, 2008, 3:55 am
Location: Melbourne,Australia

Post by annise » July 28th, 2018, 10:20 pm

MaryAnn is investigating here viewtopic.php?f=25&t=71175&p=1490857#p1490857 - might be useful pooling info

Anne

schrm
Posts: 1760
Joined: February 10th, 2018, 11:02 am
Location: Austria

Post by schrm » July 29th, 2018, 1:56 am

quoted from that thread:
Can I upload audio for a book that is Public Domain, or out of copyright?

Books that fall under Public Domain do not typically make good candidates for audiobooks; however, the only time we make an exception for Public Domain works is if your titles have met the following conditions:

> In order to claim the rights to a public domain work, you must first make sure that it is, indeed, in the public domain.
> You must have created your own version of the title by adding your own original content to it (i.e.; a historical introduction or fictionalized content).
> You must have put your original version up for sale on Amazon.com in the books section. Please do not claim the rights to any other person’s public domain product.
> You must have hired a narrator outside of ACX or narrated the book yourself. In such a case, you are welcome to upload the completed audiobook using our DIY (Do-It-Yourself) option.

Source: https://audible-acx.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6860/c/3524,3526
so, every uploader of librivox-work, which is uploaded by someone else than the lv reader, is acting against audible rules?
i remember reading somewhere, that audibles service claims to cannot do any research or valuing of such things.
but with hinting to these rules, they have to!

i have an active audible account and i see, below the quoted and linked rules, a link to contact service.
and hugh wrote, he will try to contact someone from audible staff?

to be honest, what i am missing at the moment, are samples for lv recordings on audible.
eg, i tried to look up "ella porter" as narrator in advanced search: no results given back!
is this because of me using german audible website or are these recordings gone?
can you post some links to audiblebooks originating from lv?

/reader/12275


bc gruppe: sammlung prosa, trotzkopf
duo: rousseau
en: bc manners and rules

sing "The First Nowell" viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75979

Cori
LibriVox Admin Team
Posts: 12168
Joined: November 22nd, 2005, 10:22 am
Location: Britain
Contact:

Post by Cori » July 29th, 2018, 3:19 am

There's honestly no such thing as a stupid question -- but I'm afraid I can't rule out giving a stupid answer : : To Posterity and Beyond!

hugh
LibriVox Admin Team
Posts: 8000
Joined: September 26th, 2005, 4:14 am
Location: Montreal, QC
Contact:

Post by hugh » July 29th, 2018, 4:26 am

I have not heard back yet from my old contacts, but if Maryann’s research is correct then we might have a solution for the audible problems (you cannot upload someone else’s pd content) and Mike has a mechanism to keep his PD stuff off audible.

More investigations needed.

schrm
Posts: 1760
Joined: February 10th, 2018, 11:02 am
Location: Austria

Post by schrm » August 1st, 2018, 11:49 am

just to update:
thank you cori for the short list.
i wrote to customer support, asking how we should deal with these cases.
answer was, that they connected with another department:
Thank you for contacting ACX.

I have forwarded your inquiry to our Business team for review. I will follow up with you as soon as I receive an update from them. In the meantime, please refer to the following link and refer to the section titled INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY COMPLAINTS: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=508088

We hope to be back in contact with you soon.

Have a nice day!
...
from that link:
COPYRIGHT
All content included in or made available through any Amazon Service, such as text, graphics, logos, button icons, images, audio clips, digital downloads, data compilations, and software is the property of Amazon or its content suppliers and protected by United States and international copyright laws. The compilation of all content included in or made available through any Amazon Service is the exclusive property of Amazon and protected by U.S. and international copyright laws.
...

INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY COMPLAINTS
Amazon respects the intellectual property of others. If you believe that your intellectual property rights are being infringed, please follow our Notice and Procedure for Making Claims of Copyright Infringement.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=508088#GUID-32F0D8DC-150F-4394-921F-77B2DB58A4F8__SECTION_61204EC3A0D64C09820BE2BC332A4AFA
from that link:
NOTICE AND PROCEDURE FOR MAKING CLAIMS OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY INFRINGEMENT
If you believe that your intellectual property rights have been infringed, please submit your complaint using our online form. This form may be used to report all types of intellectual property claims including, but not limited to, copyright, trademark, and patent claims.

We respond quickly to the concerns of rights owners about any alleged infringement, and we terminate repeat infringers in appropriate circumstances.

We offer the following alternative to our online form for copyright complaints only. You may submit written claims of copyright infringement to our Copyright Agent at:
...
Written claims concerning copyright infringement must include the following information:

A physical or electronic signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright interest;
A description of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed upon;
A description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the site;
Your address, telephone number, and e-mail address;
A statement by you that you have a good-faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; and
A statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your notice is accurate and that you are the copyright owner or authorized to act on the copyright owner's behalf.
so, while hugh maybe can make some sort of deal on higher levels, i seem to have caused discussions at least.
and some informations could be of use to hinder the uploaders of pd work.

/reader/12275


bc gruppe: sammlung prosa, trotzkopf
duo: rousseau
en: bc manners and rules

sing "The First Nowell" viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75979

TriciaG
LibriVox Admin Team
Posts: 43178
Joined: June 15th, 2008, 10:30 pm
Location: Toronto, ON (but Minnesotan to age 32)

Post by TriciaG » August 1st, 2018, 12:04 pm

But it is NOT copyright infringement. Our audios are not copyrighted.

tovarisch
Posts: 2754
Joined: February 24th, 2013, 7:14 am
Location: New Hampshire, USA

Post by tovarisch » August 1st, 2018, 12:27 pm

+1

schrm, since there is no infringement with PD stuff, Audible is not going to move a finger. Why would they? They are not breaking any laws. Neither are the "publishers", as far as I can see... It's the consumers who lose.
tovarisch
  • reality prompts me to scale down my reading, sorry to say
    to PLers: do correct my pronunciation please

schrm
Posts: 1760
Joined: February 10th, 2018, 11:02 am
Location: Austria

Post by schrm » August 1st, 2018, 12:42 pm

well, as i see it:
- it is their own rules, that you cannot upload readings from someoe else (even when the recordings are public domain.)
- it is even against audibes rules to upload public domain stuff

i am no lawyer and am just interested - but even cc0 is a sort of license, it is pd..
so, while others make a copyright infringement, we could theoretically make a pd claim and get the works down from audible.
maybe..
it was my question to them, and they dont know the answer for now.
in other words: it would be no problem, to write to their copyright department, when a pd work is reported.

ps:
another possibility, in theory, would be, that audbible offers all librivox contents for free. so no one would buy the version you have to pay for
but that would need a change of their rules, as they just dont allow pd works on their platform, as i understand it.

/reader/12275


bc gruppe: sammlung prosa, trotzkopf
duo: rousseau
en: bc manners and rules

sing "The First Nowell" viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75979

JenniferFour
Posts: 395
Joined: December 11th, 2015, 5:04 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Post by JenniferFour » August 1st, 2018, 3:35 pm

- it is their own rules, that you cannot upload readings from someoe else (even when the recordings are public domain.)
- it is even against audibes rules to upload public domain stuff
I didn’t see this in what you posted... is it somewhere else? Also, Audible certainly does allow PD works...just see how many versions of the classics are available.
Critical feedback is ALWAYS welcome - in the forum or via PM

Carolin
LibriVox Admin Team
Posts: 42341
Joined: May 26th, 2010, 8:54 am
Location: the Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Carolin » August 2nd, 2018, 12:08 am

I dont like to go into too much detail and this is a can of worms, but id like to throw in that our recordings are public domain, but that means some very different things in different countries. Under most european jurisdichtions, we always retain some rights, such as the right to attribution and integrity of the work. Those cannot be waived, even if you wanted to. So if my recording is uploaded without my name on it and with the disclaimer cut from it, thats a clear violation.
Carolin

Please help us finish The Theory and Practice of Brewing and learn about beer!

schrm
Posts: 1760
Joined: February 10th, 2018, 11:02 am
Location: Austria

Post by schrm » August 2nd, 2018, 4:52 am

JenniferFour wrote:
August 1st, 2018, 3:35 pm
- it is their own rules, that you cannot upload readings from someoe else (even when the recordings are public domain.)
- it is even against audibes rules to upload public domain stuff
I didn’t see this in what you posted... is it somewhere else? Also, Audible certainly does allow PD works...just see how many versions of the classics are available.
ah that is, what maryann in the other thread found as acx-rules (which are void for uploaders, seems to be, and shownn to uploadersto audible):
Can I upload audio for a book that is Public Domain, or out of copyright?

Books that fall under Public Domain do not typically make good candidates for audiobooks; however, the only time we make an exception for Public Domain works is if your titles have met the following conditions:

> In order to claim the rights to a public domain work, you must first make sure that it is, indeed, in the public domain.
> You must have created your own version of the title by adding your own original content to it (i.e.; a historical introduction or fictionalized content).
> You must have put your original version up for sale on Amazon.com in the books section. Please do not claim the rights to any other person’s public domain product.
> You must have hired a narrator outside of ACX or narrated the book yourself. In such a case, you are welcome to upload the completed audiobook using our DIY (Do-It-Yourself) option.

Source: https://audible-acx.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6860/c/3524,3526
and in combination with some of the other texts from amazon...
("you must be the copyright holder, or...or.." etc sums up to: pd work isnt allowed. that amazon themselves offer free pd works for free or paid for, is another topic, as they are not uploading our pd-stuff, like these "resellers"? do?)
..which are linked in the service answer, i got to these conclusions - but everyone is free to disagree or see it otherwise, also regarding carolin's points.

i think, crowd-intelligence is something valuable.
and in trial and error we could get to new solutions, which most people never would have thought of.

(eg, i dont fear to "claim pd works" as being pd works or report them. others refuse that for ideological reasons.
another example could be, that audible services seem to hint to copyright infringements department - wouldn't have thought of that being a somewhat correct contact possibility.
another example is for sure, that european and us american laws can be subject of misinterpretation.
to sort them out - or let audible do that for us - could be worthful, or devastating. i dont know it, but i see the situation as is as somewhat basically positive, because we have members who want to change this situation, and it is -maybe- a violation of audibles/amazons rules. normally, big companies try to avoid any rules changing and decide to keep their actions and answers within existing rules. but who knows, what will be the results. as i see it, audibles service did not reject my question at the first sight and answered.)

/reader/12275


bc gruppe: sammlung prosa, trotzkopf
duo: rousseau
en: bc manners and rules

sing "The First Nowell" viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75979

hugh
LibriVox Admin Team
Posts: 8000
Joined: September 26th, 2005, 4:14 am
Location: Montreal, QC
Contact:

Post by hugh » August 3rd, 2018, 9:28 am

I have not succeeded yet in reconnecting with anyone at Audible, but I will continue to work on it after Aug 13 on return from holidays.

Post Reply