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tony123
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Post by tony123 » December 5th, 2016, 11:39 am

SonOfTheExiles wrote:Maybe, as a placename reference, we should all post our country's versions of THIS originally Australian song: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mvBpLbNik_U

I think there was even supposed to have been a Dutch version.

SOTE
:lol: It's hopeless SOTE! I can't think that fast, but it sure sounds good, and I believe him. He's been there. I just don't know where!

How to pronounce place names foreign to one's culture can actually leave one choosing which culture one is going to please. In languages that I've studied, I've found that I've actually forgotten how to give some foreign names the correct English version. I think that may even be more of a problem for someone like me who hasn't mastered a language because my mind is trying so hard to get the correct pronunciation in the target language that I don't stop to consider that someone else may think that I think I'm smart. Depending on who's listening to you, you can sound stuck up using a foreign pronunciation, or considerate and more cosmopolitan... maybe.

That last was brought home to me years ago when I was listening to a French radio station, and one speaker was chided for saying San Francisco with an American accent. He was charged with putting on airs, which shocked me. I'd never considered using an American accent to put on airs.

SonOfTheExiles
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Post by SonOfTheExiles » December 5th, 2016, 12:09 pm

When I was recording an allegedly humorous yarn by Banjo Paterson recently, which features an American in Australia, I agonised (in a laconic, manly way of course! :lol:) over whether I should read his speeches in some sort of neutral, vanilla international accent, or whether I should give it my best attempt at an American accent. Didn't want to run the risk of putting anyone offside, you understand.

At the time, I was listening to some old OTR recordings of the old radio show Fort Laramie, and I decided that, if those guys were "going for it" the way they did with some VERY pronounced examples of regional accents, I ought to as well. I think the accent wound up as sounding more Southern than Northern. I like to describe it as "the stork was shot down over the Mason-Dixon Line".
"Sorry, my tongue got in the way of my eye-tooth, and I couldn't see what I was saying..."
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mhhbook
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Post by mhhbook » December 5th, 2016, 9:56 pm

I think a lot of mispronounced words should be forgiven, especially if English is not the the reader's first language. If they confused the pronunciation of different sounding but same spelled words such as "Take a bow" and "bow and arrow" I would probably point out the difference for future information.

Along that line, there is a great mispronounced word scene in the 1950's movie "Anything Can Happen". Jose Ferrer's character is an immigrant, who one day mentions to a fellow immigrant that he is going to get some dough. He properly pronounces the word "doe". However, his friend tells him that he is saying the word wrong, that it is "duff". When Jose disagrees with him, his friend points out other "ough" words...are pronounced enuff, ruff, tuff. Therefore, "dough" is not doe, "but is 'duff' ". Which of course it isn't, but it seems logical that it should be.
Mary

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annise
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Post by annise » December 5th, 2016, 10:31 pm

I was asked by a reader to explain the -ow words in English . I got until really well explaining that the bow of a boat was made from a tree so should have been spelled bough
But then I realised bow to someone was said the same - so perhaps it was something to do with OE bent or something - I was paddling hard by now but still breathing
Then I came to bow and arrows - made from a bent tree bough ........ and sank

I suugested they would just have to learn it.
Anne

SonOfTheExiles
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Post by SonOfTheExiles » December 5th, 2016, 11:17 pm

In English, there are actually seven, count 'em, seven different pronunciations of "-ough" :

though (like o in go)
through (like oo in too)
cough (like off in offer)
rough (like uff in suffer)
plough (like ow in flower)
ought (like aw in saw)
borough (like a in above)
"Sorry, my tongue got in the way of my eye-tooth, and I couldn't see what I was saying..."
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annise
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Post by annise » December 5th, 2016, 11:20 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ough_(orthography)
says 10 in English , 6 in North America. Its all quite logical really so it says

Anne

Peter Why
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Post by Peter Why » December 5th, 2016, 11:41 pm

I had a look at the wikipedia list and saw how "brougham" was pronounced (apparently like "true"). I checked on www.howjsay.com, which gave three pronunciations. One of them was the way I'd thought it should be pronounced, none was like "true".

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barbara2
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Post by barbara2 » December 6th, 2016, 12:42 am

Peter Why wrote:I had a look at the wikipedia list and saw how "brougham" was pronounced (apparently like "true"). I checked on http://www.howjsay.com, which gave three pronunciations. One of them was the way I'd thought it should be pronounced, none was like "true".

Peter
Peter, that is an "ough" word that has actually come up. I'm going to be boring about it, so everybody can stop reading right here.

In a project I was PLing, one of our readers chose the pronunciation "broggham" for the statesman, Lord Brougham. I mentioned to him that one of my school history books said the name was pronounced - "broom" which, though amusing in its own way (which is why I remembered it), did not sound quite as hilarious as "broggham". The reader decided to go with "broom".

howjsay.com, which you mention, is my pronouncing bible so I was surprised that it gave three pronunciation options, none of which was "broom". I checked two more sites - "Emma Says" gives bro-am and a history site gives broom.

Wikipedia has at least three entries for Brougham, which would all have been contributed by different people. The entry on the statesman gives the "broom" pronunciation too (Phonetically, "ˈbruːᵊm") . The entry on the carriage gives the pronunciations "broom" or "brohm". The entry on the village of Brougham also gives the phonetic pronunciation "bru:m" (i.e broom).

Brougham has been a village since the Roman fort of "Brocavum" was sited there, which bears out my theory that the older the proper name, the more fanciful the U.K. pronunciation.

Best,

Barbara

barbara2
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Post by barbara2 » December 6th, 2016, 1:11 am

Peter, what is the Wikipedia List you mentioned? It sounds useful.

Best,

Barbara

SonOfTheExiles
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Post by SonOfTheExiles » December 6th, 2016, 2:45 am

The -ough's are multiplying like The Blob! Somebody do something!

Or not.
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Peter Why
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Post by Peter Why » December 6th, 2016, 5:34 am

I had pronounced it "BROW-uhm".

Barbara, annise gave us the wikipedia list a few posts ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ough_(orthography)

Peter
"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." Kenneth Boulding, 1973

Dtar
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Post by Dtar » March 3rd, 2017, 6:08 am

This discussion thread is along the lines of something of concern to me, and spurred me to join the forum so that I might share my thoughts. I'm grateful for the existence of Librivox, however:

I'd like to suggest that recordings having multiple readers who pronounce character names differently make the story much less enjoyable to read. I found this to be the case with, for example the French surname "Villefort". One reader says it as if it were an English name, "Vill-fort". A second reader uses what I'd call a plain French pronunciation, where the T is silent, "Vill-four." A third reader clearly speaks French fluently and gives it the full on "Veeeel-four-ch" (where the ch is the sort of sound In the Hebrew expression "l'Chaim").
In the above example, I find myself having to consciously Think about the fact that the readers are speaking about the same character. This takes me a bit out of the story and makes it harder to follow and enjoy. This is in addition to the differences in audio levels, dramatic vs non-dramatic readings, etc found with multiple reader recordings. At the end of the day I think the listening experience is improved by having a single reader do an entire story.

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Post by TriciaG » March 3rd, 2017, 6:59 am

That can be frustrating. I've experienced it myself.

I usually look for solos to listen to, but if a work only has a group project (and a variety of pronunciations or quality of readers), I won't complain. The way I look at it is, at least there's a free audio of that book. Without the group projects, many works would never have an audiobook. :)
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annise
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Post by annise » March 3rd, 2017, 12:56 pm

If you look at it from another point of view......
If I can't follow, or can't stand the soloist for some reason then I give up on the whole book :( . but it in group reading I can just concentrate hard on the same reader and enjoy all the other readers. There is nothing that makes the reader better because they are reading the book Solo - there are excellent ones , good ones, average ones and a very few that I find impossible to listen to.

Names are a real problem. Most people who move from 1 country to another to live find that their name is said differently quite quickly. So you have a hero with a French name living with his mother in Essex since childhood and working in London while his mother runs a boarding house. So do I dig out my French or say it as the English would ? And what about his mother? From my personal experience names get Aussie-ized very quickly :D

Anne

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Post by Timothy Ferguson » March 23rd, 2017, 9:52 pm

My favourite odd pronunciation?

I've been doing a lot of naval history. The word "lieutenant". Now, many of you are going "Ah, I know that one, Americans say LOO-tenant and Brits say LEF-tenent".

In naval history, though, there's a third pronunciation. "let-ENANT"

I use it, much to the disappointment of everyone.
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