The Librivox disclaimer

kodabar · Post by **kodabar** » June 28th, 2009, 7:51 am

I downloaded Deathworld by Harry Harrison. It's very good. The reader does and excellent job. But what is annoying is the intrusive disclaimer. Does it really have to be read out in full at the beginning of every chapter? Surely once at the start of the book and once at the end would do?

I did search the fourms thoroughly for details on this, but couldn't find any, so my apologies if this has been answered before. Just try searching for "disclaimer" and see what I mean.

I ended up taking the Deathworld recording and manually trimming it to remove almost all the Librivox boilerplate. Luckily, I can edit directly to MP3 frames, so I managed this without re-encoding the files and losing quality. Quite a time-consuming task. But that's how blimmin' annoying I found the disclaimer to be.

With Deathworld, some of the chapters are three minutes long. So a disclaimer that takes 17 seconds at the start and 8 seconds at the end takes up a large percentage of the time. And having to hear it 28 times in a five hour audio book is just awful for me.

So does each and every chapter have to have the Librivox disclaimer, or could it just be done once per book?

lezer · Post by **lezer** » June 28th, 2009, 7:59 am

Hi Kodabar,
Welcome to Librivox. I'm glad you enjoyed listening to some of our audiobooks - which we produce for our own pleasure, because we enjoy doing this, as a volunteer effort. We make them available for free for everyone as a nice side-product of this !

There are discussions about the disclaimer once every few months. The most recent discussion with pros and cons you can read here: http://librivox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18615 - reading that will explain a lot I think. The discussion sometimes gets kind of heated...

I hope you enjoy the work here - feel free to join us to help out and make Librivox better & better!

Anna

kodabar · Post by **kodabar** » June 28th, 2009, 8:14 am

Well, thanks for the reply. I've now read the topic you suggested and it seems that the conclusion is (I paraphrase): "The disclaimer will continue to be placed on every chapter of every book. If you don't like it, re-edit the file yourself."

Oh dear.

Whilst I can see the reasoning behind it, I disagree with the application of it. It greatly puts me off listening to Librivox audiobooks. Heck, I'd even be willing to try recording some books myself, but I'd be unwilling to include the boilerplate text more than once, so I guess that means I'm not allowed to contribute.

Whilst you have this policy in place for a good reason, and apparently it is felt that it has helped attract new listeners and new readers, I do wonder how many listeners you have lost because of it. With regard to me, you've lost one listener and potentially one reader.

lezer · Post by **lezer** » June 28th, 2009, 8:23 am

Hello kodabar,
Of course you are welcome to your opinion.
We make these audiobooks because we like making them. It is not our goal to get as many listeners as possible - listeners' pleasure is actually if you look at it that way a side-product of what we do here. Of course, in reality, we do like to make the audiobooks as good as possible so that listeners will enjoy them - but we're not any commercial venture or anything and will never be.
You get these things for free - it is a gift from us to whoever wants it. So it is great if you enjoy it.

Anna

Lucy_k_p · Post by **Lucy_k_p** » June 28th, 2009, 8:34 am

With regard to me, you've lost one listener and potentially one reader.

But without the disclaimer, you'd never have known we existed. So either way, you'd never have read for us.

The disclaimer is what got me here. And I've found it very easy to tune out. I always have to double-check when PLing files, because I can't remember if I've heard it or not.

If you'd like disclaimer-less audiobooks, without the need for any editing, there is a wide selection available in most large book stores, or from places like Amazon.com or e-bay. Audible.com also has an enormous catalogue.

aravis · Post by **aravis** » June 28th, 2009, 8:45 am

Lucy_k_p wrote:... And I've found it very easy to tune out. I always have to double-check when PLing files, because I can't remember if I've heard it or not...

LOL... guilty there too.

I

kodabar · Post by **kodabar** » June 28th, 2009, 9:04 am

"Listeners' pleasure is a side-product of what we do here" - yup, that pretty much says it all. I would have expected that it would be your primary purpose.

"But without the disclaimer, you'd never have known we existed. So either way, you'd never have read for us."
I didn't find this site through the disclaimer. I was made aware of its existence through Project Gutenberg.

"If you'd like disclaimer-less audiobooks, without the need for any editing, there is a wide selection available in most large book stores, or from places like Amazon.com or e-bay. Audible.com also has an enormous catalogue."
Yes, and those sources are where I primarily get my audiobooks. I came here mostly in the hope of finding ones in Chinese languages, which are rather difficult to find in those places.

Having been directed to another thread concerning the disclaimers, I can see that this is an issue that comes up regularly. I normally find that if an issue keeps coming up repeatedly, then it hasn't been resolved. Perhaps you might consider that.

Anyway, thank you for the replies. I am rather suprised by how passive-aggressive some of them are. I shan't be reading any more.

Post by **TriciaG** » June 28th, 2009, 10:41 am

One nice thing is that, on newer solo works, the disclaimer is shortened for the second and following sections. It's not the 20-second thing on each chapter.

icyjumbo · Post by **icyjumbo** » June 29th, 2009, 6:31 am

kodabar wrote:Having been directed to another thread concerning the disclaimers, I can see that this is an issue that comes up regularly. I normally find that if an issue keeps coming up repeatedly, then it hasn't been resolved. Perhaps you might consider that.

I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of the facts. Instead, I'd say that people who come across the disclaimer for the first time and feel moved to come and ask whether it is necessary keep stumbling across the issue. The thing is, it's always different people, so there tend to be many repetitious threads.

You admitted yourself that you "... can see the reasoning behind it, ..." even if you don't like the application of it. I'm sorry you dislike the policy so much that it puts you off, but we do feel that the disclaimer is important enough to keep, a conclusion that we arrived at after much discussion and thought.

Starlite · Post by **Starlite** » June 29th, 2009, 8:34 am

kodabar wrote: I normally find that if an issue keeps coming up repeatedly, then it hasn't been resolved. Perhaps you might consider that.

Actually it HAS been resolved. The answer is that it will stay. That IS the resolution!

Sometimes we don't like the answers to the questions we ask but that doesn't mean that they haven't been answered satisfactorily!

Esther (just my 2 cents worth)

BellonaTimes · Post by **BellonaTimes** » June 29th, 2009, 6:34 pm

redacted

Post by **annise** » June 29th, 2009, 7:20 pm

kodabar wrote:Well, thanks for the reply. I've now read the topic you suggested and it seems that the conclusion is (I paraphrase): "The disclaimer will continue to be placed on every chapter of every book. If you don't like it, re-edit the file yourself."

Oh dear.

Whilst I can see the reasoning behind it, I disagree with the application of it. It greatly puts me off listening to Librivox audiobooks. Heck, I'd even be willing to try recording some books myself, but I'd be unwilling to include the boilerplate text more than once, so I guess that means I'm not allowed to contribute.

Whilst you have this policy in place for a good reason, and apparently it is felt that it has helped attract new listeners and new readers, I do wonder how many listeners you have lost because of it. With regard to me, you've lost one listener and potentially one reader.

I'm sorry if you found the answers a problem - its always a problem when a question is asked that has been asked before - and this certainly has - as there is the tendency to think "Oh not again". But you are not to know that so I'm sorry that is the response you feel you got.

Librivox has advice that the disclaimer is necessary on all files to prevent possible legal action - each file has to have the reader giving the file to the public domain.
We have no money to fight any legal battles and no one wants to be sued by anybody so until such time as a legal ruling is made on this whole very complex PD situation , which was creaky before the internet and is now worse , the disclaimer stays.
And whether you or I like it is not really relevant.
So I hope you can re think your decision not to read sometime

Anne

Bead Krazy Dawn · Post by **Bead Krazy Dawn** » June 29th, 2009, 11:08 pm

Some people, like myself, come here because of the disclaimer. I downloaded the Little Princess read by Kara S. from Gutenberg and every time I heard her say "or to volunteer, please visit librivox dot org" I reminded myself to check it out.

Now after learning about recording, editing, exporting, etc... I have come to greatly appreciate librivox and every person who puts hours into making a recording. The work everyone does and the fact that it's free for anyone who would like to listen makes it well worth it to me.

If the disclaimer allows us to continue here, free of legal woes, then BABY BRING IT ON.
Dawn

P.S. Bellona well done. Very to the point.

Julila · Post by **Julila** » June 30th, 2009, 1:14 am

I never added my thoughts to the whole disclaimer-discussion.

Apart from the legal reasons (which are in itself enough to justify the disclaimer!), I find it useful in a way, especially when listening to a group project, to adjust myself to the reader's way of speaking and reading, and all in all, it gives me just enough time to settle myself to listen comfortably

.

Julie.

Kungfu_sage · Post by **Kungfu_sage** » December 30th, 2009, 2:27 pm

I was directed tot his post after making my own thread on the disclaimer. Of course this is a heavily weighed group of people in favor of the disclaimer because most people like me and kodabear simply leave. It is frustrating and there probably are ways of fixing the problem so that more people can enjoy this sight and the services it provides which in fact could be quite amazing and revolutionary. I think this sight has the power to change the availability of information and liturature for a lot of people, but it seems that those who are just stuck in the "we do it how we want to and we don't care what anyone else thinks" are stunting the power of this sight. It's a great idea that is shackled by conservatism to a method that has only been around a remarkably short time.

There is a problem, and the answer is not the "though nuts" response that everyone is proposing. There are ways to expand an audience through community building and making this a welcoming place, rather than shooting down people's frustrations. One suggestion I have is that you encourage people to edit their recordings together. So that you have multiple chapters in one audio clip. This way you can have longer periods of time without the disclaimer having to be read.

this sight is a great idea, and ideas survive through out. If the founders of this community cannot meet the needs of the public it will fall someone else to realize the power of the idea more.