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Post Posted:: February 3rd, 2008, 8:54 am 

Joined: January 10th, 2008, 9:17 am
Posts: 303
Location: Taiwan
Sorry to jump in again. There's some confusion about monopolizing a PD thing. It would be incredible (not plausible or not believable by the players in a game-theoretical setups) and very difficult for us even to simulate this kind of practice in economic theory! There's a common practice that we call "open access", and in some civilizations it might be called the "commons", i.e. the resource owned by everyone (in economic logic, it is similar to "owned by nobody"). There was this famous (in economics at least) article in Science (1968) :
"The Tragedy of the Commons," Garrett Hardin, Science, 162(1968):1243-1248.

The problem for this kind of property rights is free access (and nobody has the right to restrict anyone the usage of such "open access" resource), and it caused an over-using problem, never the problme of "monopolizing" an "open access" resource. To make it more clearly, Hardin was talking about using the resources of the "commons" more than it is efficient. People used up a common property much quickly and exhaused the resouces before it can replenish itself (if it is a renewable resource). It would be an economic problem if the resource is used up too quickly before we can find a substitute, or use the resource faster than the regenerating/reproduction rate.

Like Cloud Mountain and other Librivoxers are trying to say: nobody owns air and water (and everybody own the right to breath and drink, that is the spirit of PD). Economists might consider there's a problem of over-using the resource of air and water. :lol: Fortunately, no body has a claim to the right of restricting us breathing the air or bottle the air for sale (there were air bar in Europe), or using the water from the sky (at least) and bottle it for sale (if we choose not to drink it and get very thirsty, that is our freedom of choice), or even restrict us singing "happy birthday" in private (not allowed in public though :( :shock: ). Can anyone imagine there would be a possibility of such restrition someday? If we do not set this kind of rights free, which means "open access" or PD or anything you like, the world would be a nastier place that I would not like to live in.

There are some debate of restricting people from a service of convenience: such as someone would wait in a line for you to buy a hard to get ticket for some fee, you get the ticket without wasting your time and you can work more productively and earn more income. A lot of people are willing to pay the fee to get such services. However, our gov't has been debating it for sometime and finally ban some of the services. They argue that one should not do this for profit, so ban the pratice. A lot customers have to wait in line themselves and wasting the time which they can produce more valuable things for the society. Selling LV would be one such practice. If there are customers who are not willing to be bothered downloading/cataloguing nicely/burning CD/DVDs themselves, they can pay their neighbors to do that for them, why would you tell them:"it it not good, it is baned, it is illegal, etc." If one choose to buy, and one choose to sell, and we are in a free society, and I can not figure out why would it be a sin/crime?

If one buys the CD without knowing it is PD material, it is still not a crime. We call it the rent for information. If you are not willing to surf the net and find out what's out there, and somebody search the net and collect the information for you, you save the time surfing (and did something more productively), and you are willing to pay for someone to do the info search/collecting for you, you are paying the info collecting agent a information rent. It would still be a win-win situation. Somebody have done you a service you want, and you pay the fee, and in the mean time you choose the time to do something more beneficial for you (it's your time-management scheme, and it's nobody's business.)

It is just like a dealer's service, housing agent, or a brokerage's services. They collect all the information you need and gaining specialties in that field. We are paying those services without any apprehension or concerns. There are many types of service that we are paying such information rent without realizing it. They are all legal. And we are benefited by the conveniences of such services.

If PD means "everybody can use the resources whatever they like", it is similar to "open access". The only thing that can limit the "open access usage (to solve the over-using problem in economic logic) would be by public consent, if we do not resort to privat property rights ristriction tricks. Economists would prefer some kind of private property restrition ("restriction" is the main point and magic word in this solution), simply because it is quick and effective (but not really a best solution for a world of diverisy in philosophy and beliefs). As long as there is a way to restrict the usage, it is not "open access", and somebody can do a trick or two to get profit, we call this rent-seeking behavior. If it is "open access", the only way to get more benefits is consuming it more than your neighbors' consumption and get more utility from the consumption, because nobody can sell you what you already have (the rights of free access already granted to you). If it is exhaustible resource, then consume it before it's gone. If it is renewable or non-exhaustible resource, then take your time and calculator to find out what the consumption rate is best for you. :)



HC :)


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Post Posted:: February 3rd, 2008, 3:24 pm 
LibriVox Admin Team

Joined: September 26th, 2005, 4:14 am
Posts: 7990
Location: Montreal, QC
robert:

a) all our files are backed up on http://ibiblio.org. they are a different entitiy from http://archive.org. so in the event that librivox and archive.org decided to jointly violate their missions, and in the case of archive.org, it's corporate non-profit charter, then ibiblio, I am sure, would come to the rescue and liberate the back-up versions of the files to the internet. You could send them an email and ask them to confirm if you like.

b) ibiblio.org is in the process of setting up permanent torrent seeds for (at least) our most popular books. We would like them to set up torrents for *all* our books, but it is unclear whether they have enough space/bandwidth to do that. I'll keep people posted on developments there. In any case, this will obviate your worries that archive.org and librivox will somehow horde the files and stop giving them away for free.

c) here are some other places you can get librivox files:
http://www.mininova.org/search/?search=librivox
http://www.torrentz.com/search?q=librivox
http://freeclassicaudiobooks.com/ (disclaimer removed!)
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dl ... category0=
http://public.www.planetmirror.com/pub/librivox/audio/
http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/categories/1

up until recently, a volunteer ab2525 was mirroring a good chunk of our files, but he seems to have shut down recently. these and other places will make it impossible for archive.org and librivox to engineer a coup against our missions/purposes, horde LibriVox files and sell the whole kit to google or anyone else.

d) our files are being added to project gutenberg.org's servers over time (tho they probably are not keeping pace with our production) ... gutenberg has been making public domain texts available for free for 30-odd years, and it's a fair assumption that they will continue to do so. If you have so little faith in me and the rest of the admin team at LibriVox, perhaps you should contact gutenberg and ask them what they would do in the case that LibriVox and archive.org decided to enact your scenario.

e) we encourage anyone who can to make mirrors of the LibriVox collection; however, because of the limited number of technical volunteers we have on the project, we cannot devote time or resources to helping this happen. but the files are all there, they are accessible, they are free, they are in the public domain, and by law, will be in the public domain for ever.

f) given that no one can effectively (or legally) horde the collection to the exclusion of others, which is the basis upon which your scenario is founded, then anyone with the wherewithal to spend whatever symbolic amount you choose in your scenario would be much better served saving their millions and instead hiring a couple of summer students to download the whole collection over a couple of days. Which by the way, would be wonderful, and would get my wholehearted support. The more copies out there in whatever way or format, the better.

g) if your outlandish, illegal, and frankly impossible, scenario were to come to pass, can you imagine:
i) the horrendous PR for all involved;
ii) the lawsuits from people like the EEF.org (who currently help us now and then on legal questions - maybe send them an email and ask them what they would do), and creativecommons.org (who also have advised us in the past - why not send them an email too);
iii) the lawsuits from LV ex-volunteers;
iv) the global effort to repopulate the web with new copies of LV files (many of which are sitting on the hard drives and server space of thousands of LV volunteers who would surely react strongly against such a move (I would hope) and would likely set up a new project dedicated to acoustical re-liberation (if any such thing comes to pass, I will be a member of that group)
v) the silliness of closing down public access to LV files in order to monopolize the sales of these files, when, by law, anyone who "buys" a new copy from the new "owners" has bough a Public Domain good, no matter what disclaimers etc are present (you cannot assert a copyright on a PD good, even though unscrupulous publishers do it all the time, it is not a valid claim). Again, EEF and others would be all over this with lawsuits everywhere. Ask them.

h) if you are truly worried about all this, why don't you spend some of your time and energy to download the whole collection from archive, and mirror it yourself, instead of throwing around outlandish accusations about the motives of people who have spent the past two-and-a-half years making public domain text available as public domain audio, out of passion and belief in doing something good in the world. [NOTE: we discussed you mirroring the collection previously, and I encouraged you to make the mirror, but told you that I would not recommend that LibriVox's limited tech volunteers spend time helping you to do that ... I told you the reasons why then, and I have not in the least changed my mind]

FINALLY:
i) all librivox recordings are in the public domain. that is the principle on which the project is founded, and the principle on which librivox will continue to operate.

you have had a public forum here to discuss your concerns, and I have counted precisely zero people who agree that your scenario is either a) plausible or b) possible. (though I know there are many more who are uncomfortable with releasing their recordings into the public domain - they, rightly, find other projects, and many of them do their own podcasts).

if you are not comfortable with with a project that is dedicated to making public domain audio recordings, then you should evaluate whether or not it makes sense for you to continue participating. If you wish to start a CCN-C project, please do; I will wish you all the luck in the world.

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Post Posted:: February 3rd, 2008, 5:59 pm 

Joined: June 30th, 2006, 8:42 pm
Posts: 4112
Location: Jersey Shore, N.
:hmm:
CM refrains from further comment.

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Post Posted:: February 3rd, 2008, 7:21 pm 

Joined: April 3rd, 2007, 2:44 pm
Posts: 959
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Cloud Mountain wrote:
:hmm:
CM refrains from further comment.

Hah - my little sister used to do this when we were kids. I'd tease her, then she'd follow me around the house saying, "I'm ignoring you! Hey, Scott, I'm ignoring you! Hey, no stop and listen - I'm ignoring you! Mooooom!"


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Post Posted:: February 3rd, 2008, 8:40 pm 

Joined: May 18th, 2007, 12:38 pm
Posts: 275
Location: Carlisle, MA
Robert,

While I appreciate your efforts to remain relatively respectful, I think more than one person here finds this type of thread trying. While it is not necessary for everyone to agree on every issue, these forums tend to be low on outright argumentativeness, and I think most know when their points have been made.

Erin


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Post Posted:: February 3rd, 2008, 8:55 pm 

Joined: May 22nd, 2007, 10:25 pm
Posts: 3542
Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada
SSherris wrote:
Cloud Mountain wrote:
:hmm:
CM refrains from further comment.

Hah - my little sister used to do this when we were kids. I'd tease her, then she'd follow me around the house saying, "I'm ignoring you! Hey, Scott, I'm ignoring you! Hey, no stop and listen - I'm ignoring you! Mooooom!"
Well, he did say *further* comment, so I guess that was his last one... =p

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Post Posted:: February 3rd, 2008, 10:51 pm 

Joined: January 10th, 2008, 9:17 am
Posts: 303
Location: Taiwan
Robert Scott wrote:
Here is where I disagree

NightOwl wrote:

It would be incredible (not plausible or not believable by the players in a game-theoretical setups) and very difficult for us even to simulate this kind of practice in economic theory!



Having involved myself in the process of collecting Audio and sending it to Archive.org for public use I have first hand experience with the process .... It would NOT be all that difficult to restrict access to the LV catalog monopolize the collected data strip off the PD waiver and replace it with "here is how to purchase audio" blurb <--- allowable under a PD waiver .... not allowable under CC non - commercial


Sorry for not making myself more clearly. "Incredible" is a game-theoretical terminology. What I mean is your point might be a Nash equilibrium (I have to check if it is really a Nash equilibrium in the game theoretical model), but it is definitely not a Subgame Perfect Equilibrium. In a game theoretical model, all the equilbrium (strategies, we do not use outcomes as the equilibrium concept) for every player in the game must consider the overall payoffs, from the first stage to the last stage. An incredible threat means that considering the overall payoffs (discouning and summarizing all the future earning from the last stage to the current stage-- it could be in a finite time setup or in a infinite time setup, considering all the other players' reactions and interactions, and all possible strategies of all players), the content of the threat would not be "the player's" best interest to deliver such a threat (we assume all players in the game know and would do whatever benefit oneself the most, so merely beneficial would not be the best response in this context). We have a condition called "sequential rationality", and subgame perfect equilibrium satisfies this condition by the backward induction techniques.

Why wouldn't we use Nash equilibrium, because it might include some incredible threat as an equilibrium, so in the 70s there were many game theory economists trying to refine/modify Nash equilibrium, and subgame perfect equilibrium was the most popular concept, and it is still popular nowaday, but it deals only with perfect information situation.

For using subgame perfect equilibrium concept, I am assuming that we have perfect information. However, in the real world, it would be most likely an incomplete information situation. For incomplete information, we have to setup the information structure before choosing an equilibrium concept. However, the equilibrium concepts under incomplete information setup would be quite complex and would be less intuitive, there are a few popular equilbrium concepts: Baysian perfect equilibrium and Sequential equilibrium. Personally I prefer sequential equilibrium, but the math is quite complicated and difficult to express in English. So I'll stop here.

I've been teaching game theory in the graduate school for many years. I think I know what I was talking about.

Sincerely,

HC

Note: threat means strategy (not exactly means action, but would include action).


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Post Posted:: February 3rd, 2008, 11:29 pm 

Joined: February 21st, 2007, 11:23 am
Posts: 2405
Location: Effingham, IL, USA
Robert,
What if Creative Commons becomes defunct, like its predecessor Open Content did? CC has only been around for a few years. It's not guaranteed to last, whereas the concept of the public domain will, as long as we don't live in a totalitarian society. Maybe we should be looking for other ways to protect LV content.

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Post Posted:: February 4th, 2008, 12:19 am 

Joined: February 21st, 2007, 11:23 am
Posts: 2405
Location: Effingham, IL, USA
Robert Scott wrote:
Leon ....

If you got something better than PD or CC I'd love to hear about it !!!

( Though I think the idea of CC disappearing is a bit slim )


Well, someone could buy out the organization behind CC. Probably make a killing off it too.

Sorry, I don't have any ideas beyond making lots of copies of our files. Like Gutenberg does with books. Nobody's gonna buy out the text of Pride and Prejudice any time soon! :D

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I remember how, in college, I got that part-time job as a circus clown, and how the children would laugh and laugh at me. I vowed, then and there, that I would get revenge.
-Jack Handey


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