amazon buys audible!

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Cloud Mountain
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Post by Cloud Mountain »

Robert Scott wrote:"driven by Volunteering" ....

wow you could not be more off the mark

America is a capitalist society and a nation of consumers .... so also for the most part is the entire western world.... you'd be hard pressed to find many if any volunteering more time per week than they put into their wage earning efforts ( you'd be lucky if it were 10 % )
One out of every four Americans volunteer? Think this is true?
If it were correct, that's pretty driven.
Might be interesting to find some statistics on this...
But then again, who can trust anyone with statistical training, right?
http://www.wiretapmag.org/stories/31958
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060613/news_1n13volunt.html
http://www.worldvolunteerweb.org/news-views/news/doc/american-volunteers-worth-billions.html
http://nonprofit.about.com/od/volunteers/a/bbretention.htm?p=1
http://www.alternet.org/
[url=http://librivox.org/newcatalog/people_public.php?peopleid=254]Alan's LV catalog[/url]
puffin1
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Post by puffin1 »

because they enjoy it; because they derive some pleasure, some value out of the activity
This used to be the territory covered by "amatuer", with its root in the Latin "to love". These days, it is more often used to denote unskilled, slipshod performance, or merely unpaid without the component of love.

I disagree with the measure of volunteering more hours than paid hours as the mark of volunteerism. It used to be that women could spend a great deal more time volunteering in their communities when the economics of the time allowed for them to not be wage earners. Here's an interesting page I just browsed for:

http://cas.umkc.edu/casww/sa/Volunteerism.htm
[size=84][color=#483d8b][b]Is it weird in here, or is it just me? [/b][/color][/size]- [size=75][i]Steven Wright[/size][/i]
NightOwl
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Post by NightOwl »

Cloud Mountain wrote: I don't believe Audible owns anything --or publishes anything..
They are but a distributor for book publishers who put out audiobooks.
Audible puts them in their bookmarked format for limited user listening. (4 users per item)
Facebook does not own anything, does not produce any tangible products, but they own info about valuable people (Harvard graduates to start with) and a lot of commercial potentials that Microsoft is willing to pay 240 million dollars for a 1.6% stake. Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21458486/

Actually, there is no overall/standard valuation for any idea or item in or out of market place. Everyone has his/her own valuation about everything. And those valuations are usually unequal (e.g. you prefer apples to oranges, and I prefer oranges to apples). The market place only reveals some (or we call it marginal) valuation by marginal providers or marginal comsumers of the specific valued item. For example, Facebook is at least as valuable as 240 Million dollars for a 1.6% stake for Microsoft, so Microsoft bought it for this price. However, Google did not have such high valuation for Facebook's worth, so Google was outbid by Microsoft. Microsoft paid a lot for Facebook's future commercial value, it might turn out to be a bad investment or a good one, there's uncertainty for any market place valuation and investment (for firms and for consumers as well).

For a contingency valuation (there are a lot of things that are not tangible, such as the value of democracy, free speech, freedom of any kind, charity/altruism, or environmental quality, clean water/air/land, solving the problem of global warming etc.), or for example, LV's value, there's a willingness to pay (or a willingness to accept for compensation if we sacrifice LV's enjoyment for ...) method. But there's a problem of affordability, i.e. the rich could pay more than the poor even if they put the same value on the item (the poor would willingly pay the same $ as the rich if he can afford it).
Cloud Mountain wrote:these "free" recordings aren't truly free
Water was free in the ancient time, although water is always a scarce resource. Even if the ancient did not pay for liters of water, they paid for the labor and time to get the water. And diamond is not as scarce as we think compared to its prestigiously high price, it was/still is the market manipulation of diamond providers. Housewife's chores are not truely free either, but they are offered "free" as we all comprehend the fact implicitly. Sometimes our neighbor helped us out without charge, lent us tools without asking for rental fees, or gave us some sugar/eggs/etc without charging us for the cost. Why? A sense of trust/sharing/community/solidarity/social cohesion? Schumpeter told us that Capitalism would collapse if we ignore the social cohesion factors that hold us together. Now how about the value of LV's free recordings and public domain distribution?

Knowledge helped us get this far, and helped us develop the technology to provide us all the conveniences of today. Some knowledge are free, and some are commercialized. We get a lot of help from free knowledge and some help from costly (commercialized) knowledge. Chinese would know the social cost of hiding the knowledge simply because it has vast commercial values. We have an old saying: "rather teach our daughters-in-law (of our valuable skills/secrets) than our daughters", because we are afraid that our daughters would give away the secrets to their husbands' families, so the market value of our secrets/skills would be diminished. And the fact is we lost a lot of valuable skills and secret formulas over the years. Nobody really benefited from this kind of practice in the long run. There are some kind of new variations of Chinese practice in the western world, such as the western medical service, they used the legal system and licensing practice to ban alternative medicine, so as to monopolize the medical market (they would give you some excuses of being concerned about their patients' benefit, but they were most likely concerned about sharing the market.) Medical professional community are a closed circle and medical market has the problem of extreme information asymmetry. Who would know what diagnosis is good or bad? The medical society! Doctors who practise western medicine would have no idea whether alternative medicine is good or not, but they are opposing it anyway. Why? Money talks in most cases, subconsciously or not.

Value does not always equal to the price as we saw it in the market place. For example, who could put a value/price on the life of a human being, let alone a living species. But World bank had done that and a lot of research papers and theses had tried to put value/price on a life. Do you know that a life in US would be valued at 4 Million to 20 Million according to different research/calculations, and a life in Mainland China would be valued at 800 US dollars. Why would one put a price tag on a life? It was done simply becaus we need the valuation for the job compensation (to compensate workers for a risky job), for the purpose of evaluating government regulations or evaluating public expenditure projects (such as doing the benefit-cost analysis), or for court decisions (compensations for the victims) etc.

We even tried to put value on househusband's/housewife's and children's house chores. Why? We need to put value on the household production in order to evaluate the true social welfare status and household's true purchasing power, for example, a two-earner household may earn more than one-earner household, but the purchasing power might be the same, for two-earner family has to pay maid service and babysitters and fee for household chores. So the GNP measure might not reveal the true wealth/happiness (social welfare) of a country. When there's a divorce, housewife's home production should be counted as the real-term contribution of the wife, so that is why wife is entitled to half of husband's monetary income/wealth (assuming that wife's household production is as valuable as husband's bread-earning production).

Sorry to post such a long grumble. As an economist, I just can not resist the challenge.


HC


-----
Editing note:
I was trying to forget that I made some typos here. Edited this post once and canceled the effort, and was trying to tell myself not to see the typos or obsessed by them. Turned the notebook on again and off again. Finally went to bed, tossed about, and off the bed. Turned the notebook back on. Doing the editing now. Hopefully getting all the typos corrected. Then I can "rest in peace". If I did not get all the typos corrected or if I've made more typos, I will try my best to forget about them. Cross my fingers for this.
Last edited by NightOwl on February 1st, 2008, 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
hugh
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Post by hugh »

one small comment:
Facebook does not own anything,
is not quite correct.

they own all the data that we give them. and while they don't quite *own* all the content we put on there, they might as well:
By posting User Content to any part of the Site, you automatically grant, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant, to the Company an irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, fully paid, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense) to use, copy, publicly perform, publicly display, reformat, translate, excerpt (in whole or in part) and distribute such User Content for any purpose, commercial, advertising, or otherwise, on or in connection with the Site or the promotion thereof, to prepare derivative works of, or incorporate into other works, such User Content, and to grant and authorize sublicenses of the foregoing.
which is one reason I avoid using facebook as much as possible.

see:
http://www.facebook.com/terms.php
NightOwl
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Post by NightOwl »

hugh wrote:
Facebook does not own anything,
is not quite correct.

they own all the data that we give them. and while they don't quite *own* all the content we put on there, they might as well:
....

see:
http://www.facebook.com/terms.php

Thanks for the correction. I'm not good at reading and comprehending the fine print or anything about law (too complicated and messy for me). But I enjoy reading your and other Librivoxers' comments about copyrights and other legal rights verifications.

HC
hugh
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Post by hugh »

basically, it says: "Facebook can do whatever they want with every bit of content you put on their site, forever" ... so if you post your novel on Facebook, by the terms of their TOS, they could sell it to Hollywood for $1 million, and not give you a cent.

whether that holds up in court or not is another matter, but that's what their TOS says.
NightOwl
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Post by NightOwl »

whether that holds up in court or not is another matter, but that's what their TOS says.
With Microsoft's legal team, they might be able to have the advantage over users of Facebook. The marginal cost of fighting in court for Microsoft is relatively small, because they have a regular employment of legal services just for this kind of legal wars.

However, the marginal cost of legal services for a single user is relatively large. Microsoft can fight longer and get nastier than a single user, so large companies like Microsoft will always win the suit in court, unless all or large enough portion of users of Facebook combine their resources and time to fight Microsoft. However, the transaction cost for this kind of effort (collaborating and making the users to fight against Microsoft) is too huge to contemplate.


HC
chocoholic
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Post by chocoholic »

Robert Scott wrote: Isn't this somewhat similar to if not in essence identical to that which is transferred ( rights wise ) when an individual grants a PD rights waiver to their audio recording?
:lol: That's what I was thinking.

I guess a big difference is that our volunteers state the PD release disclaimer on every file they record, so they know before they send us the recording that their work can be used by anyone in any way they like. Sounds like Facebook buries their term of use in a page of legalese, and I never read those things though obviously I need to start.

I don't know if there is a big difference (to the volunteer) in releasing work to the PD vs giving rights over to a corporation, other than there will be no competition for revenue received from the work if the rights belong solely to the corporation, meaning the corporation could potentially make lots more money that way. No time to think it through more thoroughly at the moment.
Laurie Anne
hugh
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Post by hugh »

Isn't this somewhat similar to if not in essence identical to that which is transferred ( rights wise ) when an individual grants a PD rights waiver to their audio recording?
not really, since a PD license essentially gives *anyone*, not just Facebook (or some other entity), the right to do that. And in fact Hollywood would be silly to pay $1 million for it, since the PD license would allow them to take the work for free.

PD says "anyone may use this how they like"; Facebooks TOS says: "Facebook may use this how they like."

There is a significant difference.
NightOwl
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Post by NightOwl »

chocoholic wrote: I guess a big difference is that our volunteers state the PD release disclaimer on every file they record, so they know before they send us the recording that their work can be used by anyone in any way they like. Sounds like Facebook buries their term of use in a page of legalese, and I never read those things though obviously I need to start.
I guess you are absolutely right. For Librivox's waiver of rights, we did it voluntarily in advance and with no regrets whatever happened to our recordings (in theory though, one might not be able to ignore the emotional response if our efforts were misused).

However, Facebook or other net-societies/companies did a sneaky TOS to lure us waiving something that we are not ready to give up. In Facebook's case, our privacy. This personal info are so valuable that Microsoft is willing to pay 240 Millions for it. In this case the willingness to accept of waiving our rights (preserving our privacy) was not fully compensated, and they use fine print to cheat us out of our own rights (personal info and personal creations other than PD materials) without compensation. People might be willing to waive their rights for a good cause, but they might be reluctant to waive the same rights for other people's private profits without a good reason.

If Microsoft make a legally binding statement that they will use our creative properties (things that are not PD materials, for example, one of my friends did course recordings and lecture notes for disadvantaged children, he would give it to children free of charge but would not allow someone to earn profit from selling the materials to disadvantage children) along with their donations of PCs (stuffed with our gifts) for the benefit of children in low-income countries. We may gladly waive our rights (the contents and other personal creations we put up on the net) to Microsoft for this sole purpose.

Facebook's worth is the commercial value of their archive/bank of detailed personal information. So Facebook and Microsoft can sell or use this info for marketing purposes and to target at the right customers. By this way firms' ad would be more efficient, and each $ of ad expenditure would get more sales than traditional advertisement. In addition to that, Facebook's prestigious user pool is more valuable than other net-social-club/communities. This is what Microsoft was paying for in the first place. And this privacy issue have been causing a lot of concerns lately.

HC
NightOwl
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Post by NightOwl »

Oopse! My firefox failed me when I tried to post and finally I got my last message posted. And then I saw the following:
hugh wrote: not really, since a PD license essentially gives *anyone*, not just Facebook (or some other entity), the right to do that. And in fact Hollywood would be silly to pay $1 million for it, since the PD license would allow them to take the work for free.

PD says "anyone may use this how they like"; Facebooks TOS says: "Facebook may use this how they like."

There is a significant difference.
Fine print and legal jargons/subtlety again! :evil:

HC
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