Librivox is all growed up now.

[williamjones]

Leni: And I think it's ridiculous to insist that it's ok to go on publishing a flawed product of limited benefit to anyone. The folks whose replies are basically like yours, saying "it doesn't matter if the audio files are good or not", insult the many thousands of people who would like to hear an honest narration of a good book.

Why do the MCs go to the trouble of cataloging LV books?
To garner a bigger audience for LV books?
It can't be that, because your thesis is that the audience matters nothing at all... or does it?

Then there's the question of why does LV insist on Proof Listening when, according to the words out of your own mouth "I am here to record books, because I like that. If other people benefit from it, it is secondary." You could just save yourself a lot of time by foregoing the Proof Listening phase and letting the errors fall where they might.

[ej400]

And I think it's ridiculous to insist that it's ok to go on publishing a flawed product of limited benefit to anyone.

Then that's an opinion and something the admins clearly established won't be changed. And I don't see how your idea of creating "better" products will benefit anyone. That would slow down the production of audiobooks, thus going against the LV golden rule to create as many free audiobooks as we can, and it also separates and limits the number of volunteers greatly.

The folks whose replies are basically like yours, saying "it doesn't matter if the audio files are good or not"

Nobody said, "it doesn't matter," for reference.

Why do the MCs go to the trouble of cataloging LV books?

Because how else do you expect the books to go on the librivox site? There's no like button there, it's not for a trophy, it's for fun and for free.

Then there's the question of why does LV insist on Proof Listening when...

Let's just record sections with only muffles and sounds of cars honking, read a line, and make a short 15-second "chapter" of Charles Dickens then!

I grew up listening to librivox books at as young as 7 and the fun of it was finding the different readers it had to offer! Plus reading errors and bloopers were absolutely hilarious at the time! It only added to the story! I could name many times there were mistakes in the recording, BUT THAT'S HOW I REMEMBER THE BOOK NOW. Part of my education was listening to librivox stories being read to me. That's why I contribute. It's fun being able to persuade myself however I wish through audiobooks. No cameras, just a regular human being just enjoying books and being able to share a story with others. It's like a journey, without having to worry that someday the old narrators and accents might be gone because a decision was made for quality. I'm here for the funny moments, the enjoyment of hearing a story. Maybe it's learning about physics, or math, or our fortnightly poems. They have their place with the people who recorded them. The shelf might be full, but the volunteers are constantly finding gold lodged between cover to cover. That's what I'm here for.

[icequeen]

Leni: And I think it's ridiculous to insist that it's ok to go on publishing a flawed product of limited benefit to anyone. The folks whose replies are basically like yours, saying "it doesn't matter if the audio files are good or not", insult the many thousands of people who would like to hear an honest narration of a good book.

Why do the MCs go to the trouble of cataloging LV books?
To garner a bigger audience for LV books?
It can't be that, because your thesis is that the audience matters nothing at all... or does it?

Then there's the question of why does LV insist on Proof Listening when, according to the words out of your own mouth "I am here to record books, because I like that. If other people benefit from it, it is secondary." You could just save yourself a lot of time by foregoing the Proof Listening phase and letting the errors fall where they might.

A flawed product? According to whom? Are you now the judge of what is flawed and what is not? Are you looking for perfection? What is perfection? What are the criteria for this perfection? Do you produce a perfect audiobook? Have you produced a perfect audiobook? Who is your judge? Who should be the judge of another person's work? I could keep going, but I am hoping you get my point. Please don't judge others, unless you know full well that you will not fall short of your own judgment.

As the admin who answers all of the Thank You notes from the Thank a Reader email system, I can say that thousands of people completely appreciate what we do here at LV. They all understand that this is not a perfect product. But they appreciate the effort, and they love the fact that someone took the time produce an audiobook that has helped them in some way. You knock the fact that...

If other people benefit from it, it is secondary.

Well, it is not that LV cares, or doesn't, about this, it is the reader who cares. We all have a reason to do what we do. It is hard, lonely work making audiobooks! But we all do this for some reason. What that reason is, that can only be answered by each individual reader, and I would bet that the answer is different for each reader. What is your reason for making audiobooks? Remember, LV is only the library, with an almost unlimited amount of shelf space. That is all that it is, pure and simple.

[MaryinArkansas]

As someone who mostly volunteers as a DPL, I would like to see a strong, standard suggestion that a new reader record ONLY ONE story, chapter, poem, whatever, before submitting any additional material. The one minute test is ok, but recording a chapter, poem, etc takes a lot more time and work and effort. I’ve gone through the frustrations of listening to narrators who had decent enough voices, but were careless in their recordings…turning away from their microphones so frequently that many of their words get totally lost, or are overpowered by loud background noises of sirens, etc. A few slip ups are understandable, but it is very frustrating to listen to recordings that the reader has obviously not proof listened to before submitting.

I do believe in constructive criticism and have sometimes PM’d people with comments such as: ”Your voice is very nice, but your reading pace is a little rushed. Be sure to take time to enjoy telling the story.”

With encouragement from a proof listener and some efforts in improving their own narration, I think a “bad” reader can become a “good” reader. It is not magic…it takes some time, effort and often very hard work. But I think the results are worthwhile.

[annise]

There is a strong suggestion that newbies do the "test (sound check) and selection something they enjoy from the short works - it is in their welcome email , often repeated with the test results, and posted again the launch pad after a newbie decides to read war and peace in 3 weeks
.
But people are people
there are the "when all else fails read the instructions" ones
and the " what can be hard about just reading a story - sometimes worded as this is an easy way to get credits " ones
and the " I know all about recording why should I do anything first" ones

and just people anxious to record something immediately.
And very very rarely they are right - but those ones usually just do the test and short works and are recording anything they want that we can host very quickly.

Anne

[david wales]

Wait, wait !! There are readers who don't review and edit their initial recording??!! I can't believe it. My editing of every file takes almost as long as the original recording and the resulting file is always significantly shorter than the original because of outtakes. Without editing my files would include:
dachshunds scratching at the door to be let in
the refrigerator ice maker kicking in (sounds like a B29 taking off)
ambulances at a nearby retirement home
helicopters circling the accidents on a nearby freeway (this is California, we have lots of accidents)
rain on the roof and skylight (this is Southern California, we don't get lots of that)
the Amazon delivery man ringing the doorbell
the cough that catches me unawares
long silences while I try to figure out how to say something
wrong intonations of a sentence begun without thinking it through
words that mysteriously do not mirror what is in the written text (my mind must be a chaos; sometimes I even say the opposite of what the written word says)

and with all that I tremendously enjoy recording and making available works that appeal to me. It is my main hobby in retirement, taking the place of gardening which tricky legs no longer allow. I enjoy the recording but I certainly enjoy the thought of making a recording that is appealing for someone interested in the same thing. My possible listeners are not irrelevant to the process but part of the process. But I do enjoy and rely on the librivox policy to let me be (edited) me in my recording. A putative listener can opt out of a recording they don't like; that's their prerogative. And by the way, I am a native speaker of English, though I have some high school English teachers who would dispute that claim.
I think librivox does a superlative job in its stated mission and I'm really glad to be a part of what it does. (I constantly brag about librivox to friends and new acquaintances - just ask them about the constant part.)

[Availle]

I seriously read

the couch that catches me unawares

Thanks for the laugh!

[williamjones]

Leni: And I think it's ridiculous to insist that it's ok to go on publishing a flawed product of limited benefit to anyone. The folks whose replies are basically like yours, saying "it doesn't matter if the audio files are good or not", insult the many thousands of people who would like to hear an honest narration of a good book.

Then there's the question of why does LV insist on Proof Listening when, according to the words out of your own mouth "I am here to record books, because I like that. If other people benefit from it, it is secondary." You could just save yourself a lot of time by foregoing the Proof Listening phase and letting the errors fall where they might.

A flawed product? According to whom? According to my ears. Are you now the judge of what is flawed and what is not? I am one of the many thousands of disappointed LV users Do you produce a perfect audiobook?
At least *I* try. In question is not MY production, but the existing multitudes of mostly unintelligible sections out there already and those in the pipeline because BCs or MCs don't have the gumption to insist on better quality..

[mightyfelix]

William, please stop insisting on this. You have made a suggestion. Your suggestion will not be adopted. Period. Full stop. End of story. You have been given many good reasons for this. Some of these reasons have come from admins, some have not. You might not regard these reasons as good, but that will not alter the fact that the the changes you propose to LibriVox's standards will not be made.

You are accomplishing nothing by continuing to argue against the current standards, except to chip away steadily at the welcoming sense of community that we strive to maintain here.

You have been answered. You now have a choice to make. You can accept the answer and go back to making free audiobooks, which is what we are all here to do. Or you can regard the answer as a deal breaker, and you can decide to resign as a volunteer. You are welcome to take either course of action. You are not welcome to continue to add fuel to the fire of tempers (yours and others') that are already flaring.

[williamjones]

William, please stop insisting on this. You have made a suggestion. Your suggestion will not be adopted. Period. Full stop. End of story. You have been given many good reasons for this. This is a false statement.
<snip>

What I have seen are many iterations of this sentiment: "This is the way we've always done it (the theme song of the engineers who designed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge) and because god made us Admins superior and smarter than everyone else, our tyranny over Librivox will continue. New ideas are not welcome."

I'll have only one more response to this thread and then I'm done with it. Later this morning.

[lorda]

Use the, in your perception, 'weaker' recordings as an opportunity for yourself. Listen to all of the recordings and if one doesn't meet your criteria, record your own version of it - the choice of voice. This means that you can also support your friend and provide him with better shots.

[MaryinArkansas]

Wait, wait !! There are readers who don't review and edit their initial recording??!!

Most of the readers I listen to do an excellent job of editing...something that is usually obvious when the pitch or tone in a phrase changes slightly whenever a correction has been made. But I have come across a very small number of readers who are careless and sloppy with their edits. They'll correct mis-read words, but will leave in loud background noises during several seconds of silence, not delete a sneeze and such. Non edits or bad edits are very rare, but they are very frustrating.

[ChipDoc]

the " I know all about recording why should I do anything first" ones

and just people anxious to record something immediately.
And very very rarely they are right - but those ones usually just do the test and short works and are recording anything they want that we can host very quickly.

I worked in broadcast for 30 years so I actually do know a lot about recording. Plus I read for Librivox before being called away by real life concerns so I'm familiar with the process.

But when I came back after 15 years, I figured it was best to follow the process and I made a one minute test. I was appreciative of the technical tips that helped me get used to the new recording software.

But I was horrified by the playback of my first recording in many years. While some of that was caused by my increasing decrepitude, a lot of it was just forgetting the basics of how to physically manage the recording.

So if someone like ME finds his narrations lacking and benefits from the suggestions of a neutral observer, I think the process that's been developed here over the years is sound (excuse the pun) and should be continued.

[Kitty]

god made us Admins superior and smarter than everyone else, our tyranny over Librivox will continue. New ideas are not welcome."

How can you accuse the admins of tyranny, when you yourself started this thread with the intent of imposing your own tyrannical view of selection and only letting the good readers in to play, while we keep reminding you of the tolerance towards all talents, minor or great, we always want to keep on this forum ?

New ideas are welcome...only bad new ideas are not welcome.

If you want to create your own forum with your own ideas, selecting readers and bringing out high quality audio-books for free, then you are very welcome to do so. Nowadays it's probably not that difficult to get a new forum up and running (although I am not a specialist in that). Hugh managed to create this wonderful community from scratch and see where we are so many years down the road.

Sonia

[TriciaG]

And with that, I'm locking this thread. The discussion will not go anywhere new, and it can only go downhill from here, I think.

Thank you to those who participated, sharing their thoughts and opinions and feelings in a respectful, kind manner.