Pronunciation help: all languages

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Peter Why
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Post by Peter Why » August 7th, 2016, 1:12 pm

.. returning as promised. Could I have some help with a few more German words and phrases, and one French name, please?
Peter

French
Houel

German
Johann Bolyai de Bolyai
Wolfgang
Klausenberg
Maros Vasarhely (a college)
Gauss
Göttingen
Temesvar (town near Vienna?)
Tentamen (book title)
"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." Kenneth Boulding, 1973

echoism
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Location: Los Angeles, USA
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Post by echoism » August 10th, 2016, 8:19 am

Hi Peter!

I can't help for the German, but the French sounds like:
https://librivox.org/uploads/xx-nonproject/french_houel.mp3

The 'h' is silent :)
In international phonetic alphabet: [uɛl]

Good luck!
Isabelle

Peter Why
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Joined: November 24th, 2005, 3:54 am
Location: Chigwell (North-East London, U.K.)

Post by Peter Why » August 10th, 2016, 8:42 am

Thanks, echoism, that's a big help.

My schoolboy French lessons are a long time ago.

I've had a PM about the Hungarian and German, so I should be able to tidy up my current solo section. I'm sure there will be more.

Peter
"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." Kenneth Boulding, 1973

JorWat
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Location: Oxfordshire, England

Post by JorWat » November 23rd, 2016, 5:02 pm

I'm currently reading (though I'm still yet to start...) An Inquiry Into the Causes and Effects of the Variolae Vaccinae by Edward Jenner, and I'm trying to work out how to say 'Variolae Vaccinae'. I seem to have come up with two ways. The 'English' way (i.e. starting with what I can find in a dictionary), something like "vuh-rye-uh-lye vak-see-nye", or the 'Latin' way (i.e. going by Latin pronunciation rules), something like "vah-rih-or-lye vak-key-nye". Which one is more likely?

Also, while I'm at it, within the text are 'Vitriolum Zinci' and 'Vitriolum Cupri', which I'm interpreting as something like "vih-trih-or-lum zin-kee" and "koo-pree", again, going by Latin pronunciation.
Jordan

Alcohol and Maths don't mix. So never drink and derive.

tovarisch
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Location: New Hampshire, USA

Post by tovarisch » November 23rd, 2016, 9:21 pm

From some source I can't recall I learned that 'c' before i,e is pronounced 'ts', which later became 'ch' in Italian... That suggests to me "vah-reh-OH-leh vak-TsEE-neh".

As to "Vitriolum", I'd put the emphasis on 'o', but I'm no expert. I found this page, maybe it'll help you, or check out the Wikipedia article.
tovarisch
  • reality prompts me to scale down my reading, sorry to say
    to PLers: do correct my pronunciation please

JorWat
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Post by JorWat » November 24th, 2016, 12:18 am

tovarisch wrote:As to "Vitriolum", I'd put the emphasis on 'o', but I'm no expert. I found this page, maybe it'll help you, or check out the Wikipedia article.
I already looked at those. 'vitriolum' doesn't have any long vowels (notice that there are no lines over any of the vowels, indicating a long vowel, but there is one on 'vitrioli', so they haven't just forgotten them), so the antepenultimate syllable is stressed (i.e. 'tri').
Jordan

Alcohol and Maths don't mix. So never drink and derive.

Peter Why
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Post by Peter Why » November 24th, 2016, 1:30 am

I wonder whether apothecary's Latin would have anglicised pronunciation? So "vitriolum" would be pronounced as if it were related to "vitriolic", with the emphasis on the "ol". For me, it feels more natural than the possibly more accurate "vi-TRI-olum".

I suspect this is one of those cases where the reader simply has to choose a pronunciation and speak it with confidence.

Peter
"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." Kenneth Boulding, 1973

JorWat
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Post by JorWat » November 24th, 2016, 3:30 am

Peter Why wrote:I wonder whether apothecary's Latin would have anglicised pronunciation?
You've got a point. I should aim for an 'English' pronunciation.

So: So, I think the pronunciations I'll go for are:

"vuh-rahy-uh-lee vak-suh-nee"

"vi-tree-ol-uhm zing-kee" and "kyoo-pree"
Last edited by JorWat on November 24th, 2016, 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Jordan

Alcohol and Maths don't mix. So never drink and derive.

Peter Why
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Location: Chigwell (North-East London, U.K.)

Post by Peter Why » November 24th, 2016, 4:49 am

I'd go with those pronunciations, though "vaccinal" might be "vac-SINE-uhl", and "variolae" could have the more modern pronunciation "var-ee (or "ay") -OHL-ee (or "ay")".

Peter
"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." Kenneth Boulding, 1973

JorWat
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Post by JorWat » November 24th, 2016, 6:21 am

I've since found this website, which has 'variola vaccina' being pronounced 'ver-ee-oh-luh vak-see-nuh'.

Also, OED has variola as 'vuh-rahy-uh-luh', with 'ver-ee-oh-luh' being listed as an American pronunciation.

So, 'variolae' could be 'vuh-rahy-uh-lee', 'ver-ee-oh-lee', or 'vah-rih-or-lye', and 'vaccinae' coule be 'vak-suh-nee', 'vak-see-nee', or 'vak-key-nye'

The more I look into this, the more confusing it gets...
Jordan

Alcohol and Maths don't mix. So never drink and derive.

tovarisch
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Post by tovarisch » November 24th, 2016, 6:26 am

If among your listeners there is going to be one who knows better than you, and he/she notices a mis-pronunciation (according to their POV or knowledge), they are likely to forgive. In other words, do whatever comes natural, you're not recording a textbook on Latin pronunciation, are you? :wink:
tovarisch
  • reality prompts me to scale down my reading, sorry to say
    to PLers: do correct my pronunciation please

Peter Why
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Joined: November 24th, 2005, 3:54 am
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Post by Peter Why » February 16th, 2017, 2:12 pm

Could I have a little help with some Latin pronunciation, please? Google Translate makes no sense of it; from the context, it seems to be a mnemonic collection of possibly unrelated words, but I'd like to know how those words should sound.

Barbara celarent Darii ferioque [prioris].
Caesare Camestris Festino Baroko [secundae]
[Tertia] darapti disamis datisi felapton.
Bokardo ferisson habet [Quarta insuper addit]
Bramantip camenes dimaris ferapton fresison.


Peter
"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." Kenneth Boulding, 1973

barbara2
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Post by barbara2 » February 18th, 2017, 4:37 am

Peter Why wrote:Could I have a little help with some Latin pronunciation, please? Google Translate makes no sense of it; from the context, it seems to be a mnemonic collection of possibly unrelated words, but I'd like to know how those words should sound.

Barbara celarent Darii ferioque [prioris].
Caesare Camestris Festino Baroko [secundae]
[Tertia] darapti disamis datisi felapton.
Bokardo ferisson habet [Quarta insuper addit]
Bramantip camenes dimaris ferapton fresison.


Peter
You are right, it's a logic mnemonic.

I hope this is an entertaining guide to the pronunciation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln34Tuct5cM


In case links to YouTube are not allowed, google "Barbara Celarent logic". I came across it because Lord Peter Wimsey learnt it when he was in love with a girl called Barbara - "There was a kind of mysterious romantic lilt about the thing which was somehow expressive of passion".



Best,

Barbara non Celarent etc

Peter Why
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Joined: November 24th, 2005, 3:54 am
Location: Chigwell (North-East London, U.K.)

Post by Peter Why » February 18th, 2017, 8:26 am

Thanks, Barbara, I didn't realise that the verse was so well-known. The choir wasn't named in the youtube video; they reminded me of a British group called "The Sixteen".

However, I couldn't work out the pronunciation from their singing. I'll just have to dig out the Latin pronunciation guide that's buried somewhere in my papers from years ago, and figure it out word for word.

Peter
"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." Kenneth Boulding, 1973

bluechien
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Location: Downeast Maine, USA

Post by bluechien » March 3rd, 2017, 10:16 pm

I'm reading a piece with a greek quote from Plato's symposium above the introduction. After listening to a few words pronounced in various dictionaries, and knowing no greek, I feel more and more like I would love to ask someone who knows this language, if they would be willing to contribute this line to my reading, rather than me doing the possibly-listener-unfriendly thing of going it alone.

(namely:
εἶσὶ γὰρ οὖν, οἳ ἐν ταῖς ψυχαῖς κυοῦσιν
)

Is it kosher to ask this kind of favor here?
Eva D
PLers: pls correct pronunciation!

“But take my advice, when you meet anything that's going to be human and isn't yet, or used to be human once and isn't now, or ought to be human and isn't, you keep your eyes on it and feel for your hatchet.”

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