Help with French, please--The French pronunciation thread

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neckertb
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Post by neckertb » September 10th, 2012, 11:01 am

Nadine

Les enfants du capitaine Grant

Live in a death + 70 country? Have a look at Legamus

michaelreuss
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Post by michaelreuss » September 11th, 2012, 10:15 am

Thank you so much, Nadine! Do you want me to PM you as the respective chapters are completed?
Mike

neckertb
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Post by neckertb » September 11th, 2012, 10:32 am

Sure but you can also post here, i am watching the thread :)
Nadine

Les enfants du capitaine Grant

Live in a death + 70 country? Have a look at Legamus

neckertb
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Post by neckertb » September 30th, 2012, 12:04 pm

Hi Michael

Sorry about the misunderstanding, here is the rest: http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/xx/mikereuss2.mp3 :)
Nadine

Les enfants du capitaine Grant

Live in a death + 70 country? Have a look at Legamus

catrose
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Post by catrose » October 4th, 2012, 10:34 am

I have a list of names for my Phantom of the Opera that I'm not sure of the pronunciation of. Could someone help me please? :)
  • Jammes
  • M. Moncharmin
  • M. Richard
  • M. Poligny
  • M. Debienne
  • Philippe, the Comte de Chagny
  • Mercier
  • Milfroid
  • Remy
  • Gabriel
Thank you :D
Cat
charlotteduckett.com

A Level exams from 4th May to 30th June. I am around, just not as often. If I forget or miss anything, drop me a PM and I'll be on it like a wasp on honey!

LibbyG
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Post by LibbyG » October 4th, 2012, 11:27 am

catrose wrote:I have a list of names for my Phantom of the Opera that I'm not sure of the pronunciation of. Could someone help me please? :)
  • Jammes
  • M. Moncharmin
  • M. Richard
  • M. Poligny
  • M. Debienne
  • Philippe, the Comte de Chagny
  • Mercier
  • Milfroid
  • Remy
  • Gabriel
Thank you :D
French names can be crazy hard. Here are my pronunciations on my cheap in-computer mic:
http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/xx/poto_names.mp3
What am I up to?
Amelia Vol. 2 - 10 sections open

catrose
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Post by catrose » October 4th, 2012, 11:29 am

Thanks Libby. You're the best! :D
Cat
charlotteduckett.com

A Level exams from 4th May to 30th June. I am around, just not as often. If I forget or miss anything, drop me a PM and I'll be on it like a wasp on honey!

cynm1788
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Post by cynm1788 » October 11th, 2012, 2:55 pm

Okay, there's this gorgeous bit o' verse by (16th Century, "Prince des poètes") Ronsard in a section of Montaigne I'm volunteered for:

"la lumiere commune,
L'oeil du monde; et si Dieu au chef porte des yeux,
Les rayons du Soleil sont ses yeux radieux,
Qui donnent vie à tous, nous maintienent et gardent,
Et les faicts des humains en ce monde regardent:
Ce beau, ce grand soleil qui nous faict les saisons,
Selon qu'il entre ou sort de ses douze maisons;
Qui remplit l'univers de ses vertus connues;
Qui, d'un traict de ses yeux, nous dissipe les nues:
L'esprit, l'ame du monde, ardant et flamboyant,
En la course d'un jour tout le Ciel tournoyant;
Plein d'immense grandeur, rond, vagabond et ferme;
Lequel tient dessoubs luy tout le monde pour terme;
En repos sans repos; oysif, et sans sejour;
Fils aisné de nature et le pere du jour."

I copied the above from "here", but the text we've been reading from is "here" (& also "here"). My own best-guess is "here", in Leni's LV Uploader directory (so whenever that link stops working, we'll know it's been re-/moved). I read it without knowing {French!} what I'm saying, but I took my cues from what I think Ronsard must have been doing with his meter.

It's great to see, elsewhere in this thread, how generous y'all are about contributing even enormous chunks of French to another reader's recording, so if anyone wants to record the Ronsard for direct insertion into my completed section, make sure you tell me, because French has got me all nervous, plus I'm a little distracted by "real life" {as are so very many of us this week, it seems; what's up with that?!?}. If my reading is just off by not-too-much, I can take direction and re-record it when I do the assigned section. Fortunately, if I don't happen to get the section finished by, like, yesterday, I think Leni will permit me to go on living, so my schedule-crunch (while it's not doing anything good for my sense-typing abilities) couldn't have come at a better hour.

Whatever form whatever help y'all can offer/I can get takes on, thanks in advance.
\\//_ -- cyn
____
"Computer: end program." - var.

"Here, this is not my doctrine, 'tis my study;"

"Word of the day"

LibbyG
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Post by LibbyG » October 11th, 2012, 3:17 pm

cynm1788 wrote:Okay, there's this gorgeous bit o' verse by (16th Century, "Prince des poètes") Ronsard in a section of Montaigne I'm volunteered for:

"la lumiere commune,
L'oeil du monde; et si Dieu au chef porte des yeux,
Les rayons du Soleil sont ses yeux radieux,
Qui donnent vie à tous, nous maintienent et gardent,
Et les faicts des humains en ce monde regardent:
Ce beau, ce grand soleil qui nous faict les saisons,
Selon qu'il entre ou sort de ses douze maisons;
Qui remplit l'univers de ses vertus connues;
Qui, d'un traict de ses yeux, nous dissipe les nues:
L'esprit, l'ame du monde, ardant et flamboyant,
En la course d'un jour tout le Ciel tournoyant;
Plein d'immense grandeur, rond, vagabond et ferme;
Lequel tient dessoubs luy tout le monde pour terme;
En repos sans repos; oysif, et sans sejour;
Fils aisné de nature et le pere du jour."

I copied the above from "here", but the text we've been reading from is "here" (& also "here"). My own best-guess is "here", in Leni's LV Uploader directory (so whenever that link stops working, we'll know it's been re-/moved). I read it without knowing {French!} what I'm saying, but I took my cues from what I think Ronsard must have been doing with his meter.

It's great to see, elsewhere in this thread, how generous y'all are about contributing even enormous chunks of French to another reader's recording, so if anyone wants to record the Ronsard for direct insertion into my completed section, make sure you tell me, because French has got me all nervous, plus I'm a little distracted by "real life" {as are so very many of us this week, it seems; what's up with that?!?}. If my reading is just off by not-too-much, I can take direction and re-record it when I do the assigned section. Fortunately, if I don't happen to get the section finished by, like, yesterday, I think Leni will permit me to go on living, so my schedule-crunch (while it's not doing anything good for my sense-typing abilities) couldn't have come at a better hour.

Whatever form whatever help y'all can offer/I can get takes on, thanks in advance.
Hey, Cynthia! I don't have much of a sense of meter, but I can record this for you if you'd like.

Or, if you'd like to do it yourself, here are the words that were a bit off (though you did very impressively!)
lumiere - loo-mee-AIR
humains - oo-MAI(N) (sometimes h's are pronounced, sometimes they are silent; French just likes to mess with us!)
ce - somewhere between seh/suh
vertues - vair-TOO
connues - con-NOO
ame - AHM (you said "AIM" which means "the love of the world" rather than "the soul of the world')
dissipe les nues - di-SEEP lay NOO
vagabond - vah-gah-BO(N)
fils aisne - FEES ay-NAY

French is difficult to put into phonetic spelling. If you understand IPA, I can give you those spellings. But basically, "(n)" means "make the preceeding vowel nasal" - you don't say the "n" sound so much as say the vowel through your nose. Also, all the "oo"s that I've put at the end of words are quite short sounds, very similar to a "u" with an umlaut in German, if you are familiar with that.

Good Luck!
What am I up to?
Amelia Vol. 2 - 10 sections open

cynm1788
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Post by cynm1788 » October 11th, 2012, 10:42 pm

LibbyG wrote:
cynm1788 wrote:Ronsard in a section of Montaigne
[...]
Whatever form whatever help y'all can offer/I can get takes on, thanks in advance.
Hey, Cynthia! I don't have much of a sense of meter, but I can record this for you if you'd like.
Thanks, Libby, hugely. :D Y'know what I'd really like? :hmm: If you could record for me in "prose-style" so I'd have a little hint as to what of the basic sense is distorted by "adding meter". :thumbs: Oh, and if you could, please, "speak slowly" {as counterintuitive as that is in French :wink: } without altering the semantic connotations? {IRONY :twisted: ALERT} And of course I'll be needing authentic Middle French, otherwise, simply don't bother. :roll:
LibbyG wrote:Or, if you'd like to do it yourself, here are the words that were a bit off [...] French is difficult to put into phonetic spelling.
See, I'd really love to do it myself [<= with all the aggressive enthusiasm of a two-year-old saying, "Mine! I do!"], plus I want you to know I do appreciate the trouble you've taken to fake up the "plain text" phonetics (which work well enough in context with over-informed opinions).
LibbyG wrote:(sometimes h's are pronounced, sometimes they are silent; French just likes to mess with us!)
(and here's an instance of preceding that h with one-a-them "sigma movables"...messy-and-a-half)
LibbyG wrote:If you understand IPA, I can give you those spellings.
For future reference &/or immediate in-/convenience, yes, I understand "entry-level" IPA {at least as far as Wikipedia has been taking it}. I know you know there's more to any language than the correct pronunciation of individual words, and I really could learn a lot very quickly with even a dashed-off recording of a "straight" reading. To prove my mettle, let me tell you how much it bugs me not knowing how tightly "vie" connects with "donnent", or "luy" with "dessoubs": it translates into inflection & timing, and a native speaker will demonstrate the differences without even knowing it; moreover, these are the nuances that signal by how much "poetry" is wrenching the language (another reason to inquire into how these lines in particular scan as "prose").

Thanks, again, Libby. Sorry we're not just sitting across a table, as we would've been done with this & on to better things aeons ago. But if you've been "able to handle" my crabbed-English posting-pidgin, nothing's as bad as I imagine {coming after a day best spent weeping under the covers}.
\\//_ -- cyn
____
"Computer: end program." - var.

"Here, this is not my doctrine, 'tis my study;"

"Word of the day"

neckertb
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Post by neckertb » October 12th, 2012, 12:20 am

Wow. I'm impressed with both of you there :shock: This is old French, too, which does not make it easier!
It seems that you two can manage, but if not let me know :)
Nadine

Les enfants du capitaine Grant

Live in a death + 70 country? Have a look at Legamus

cynm1788
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Post by cynm1788 » October 12th, 2012, 1:15 am

panicpanicpanic...oh...whew!
neckertb wrote:Wow. I'm impressed with both of you there :shock: This is old French, too, which does not make it easier!
Wow, back! You impress the heck outta me, even when the subject isn't French, of any vintage. I hope Libby gets as big a boost from your comments as I have. Thanks for confirming we're not plishing around in the shallows, here.
neckertb wrote:It seems that you two can manage, but if not let me know :)
Well, I've been practicing my virtual social bonding behaviors with/on/at Libby, on a couple of fronts, and she's been a very good sport about it. But, see, she majored in [ancient] Greek, which defaults to a favorable stereotype in my "book". And the deader a language is, the happier I am in any dealings with it.

One of my Classics professors is fond of insisting that "French is Latin for control-freaks", but I happen to know how being amongst French-speakers is an excellent test of social equity (i.e. when a speaker of French wants you to understand them, they will bring you up to speed, and quickly). Here in pixel-dependent wonderland, I have troubles enough without encouraging anyone to believe I'm really trying to be offensive (and making a mess of Somebody Else's Language is risky under any circumstances).

If there is such a thing as too much input, that's a difficult limit for me to identify, personally. Over and above, I'd be robbing my recording of an opportunity to feature something better than I can deliver by my own efforts if I failed to welcome all comers. Libby, graciously, demurred when it came to meter, and if I had nothing more than what she's already, generously, given me, I could at least manage on my own well enough to pass PL (and your endorsement is additional encouragement there). On a final tangent, these lines we're working on are excerpted from a longer work, so if someone were feeling especially enthusiastic about it, there's a multilingual collection still accepting contributions!
\\//_ -- cyn
____
"Computer: end program." - var.

"Here, this is not my doctrine, 'tis my study;"

"Word of the day"

cynm1788
Posts: 602
Joined: June 28th, 2012, 12:02 pm
Location: California, USA

Post by cynm1788 » October 12th, 2012, 11:33 am

Here's fuel for controversy:
http://www.forvo.com/search/humains/

And a recent reality-checkup, to which I tried to apply Libby's coaching:
http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/xx/ronsard_take2_cam.mp3 [01:17]

And a bit of different perspective, so y'all know how bad I can really be & still pass PL:
http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/xx/MontaigneFrench.mp3 [00:23]

That's what happens when I depend upon the 'puter to tutor me:
http://www.acapela-group.fr/text-to-speech-interactive-demo.html

As glad as I am that I've been working at this, I'm still open to being saved from myself. It's uncertain whether I'll actually be able to begin recording the Montaigne section [#45] today, and I know I don't need to have any replacement track ready at the front-end, but I'm just broadcasting my schedule {to let Leni know I'm not leaving the project at loose ends} in case it makes any difference to anybody.

Libby, thanks again, very much! If I couldn't get your fixes properly "in my ear", well, I couldn't actually hear them; no offense intended to you by my own failings.
\\//_ -- cyn
____
"Computer: end program." - var.

"Here, this is not my doctrine, 'tis my study;"

"Word of the day"

LibbyG
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Post by LibbyG » October 12th, 2012, 12:35 pm

Oops, I forgot that there this weird thing about French poetry. Wikipedia explains in best:
Furthermore, unlike modern spoken French (at least in the north of France), a silent or mute 'e' counts as a syllable before a consonant and is pronounced, but is elided before a vowel (where "h aspiré" counts as a consonant). When it falls at the end of a line, the mute "e" is hypermetrical (outside the count of syllables).
See, I told you French was trying to mess with us. Here's my read, the rhythm is completely off, but the pronunciations should be good:
http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/xx/lalumiere.mp3
What am I up to?
Amelia Vol. 2 - 10 sections open

cynm1788
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Location: California, USA

Post by cynm1788 » October 12th, 2012, 1:49 pm

Great Virgil's ghost!
LibbyG wrote:Oops, I forgot that there this weird thing about French poetry. Wikipedia explains in best:
a silent or mute 'e' counts as a syllable before a consonant and is pronounced, but is elided before a vowel
See, I told you French was trying to mess with us.
They mess with themselves first. But I'm certain it's well worth the effort, 'specially if The Poet has taken the trouble to adhere to the edict. And I survived, not only Vergil, but Horace & Homer, so I'm not about to admit defeat-by-Ronsard!

I count a mere handful of instances to which this new-to-me rule applies, and the neurolinguist part of me has already described them as, not so much un-muted "e"s as deliberately over-enunciated consonants, just the sort of dramatic emphasis a good poem can make use of {& a technique applied in emotionally heightened speech, like punctuation, in the everyday, when Everyman has A Point to drive home, or?}.
LibbyG wrote:Here's my read, the rhythm is completely off, but the pronunciations should be good:
http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/xx/lalumiere.mp3
:9: *happy sigh* :9:

Thanks, Libby, I've just given your file a quick listen-to, and my ears tell me it's worth any thousands of typed-up words. Thank you so much. Actually, it's easier for me to follow your recording than it is for me to do with my own! Blinding insight! Thanks, again!

{on a topsy-turvy day like this *week*, it's nice being caught at an upswing}
\\//_ -- cyn
____
"Computer: end program." - var.

"Here, this is not my doctrine, 'tis my study;"

"Word of the day"

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