I need help with Latin please!

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ginny
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Joined: September 28th, 2014, 2:22 pm

Post by ginny » October 30th, 2014, 9:55 am

Hi,
I’m recording a fragment of an unfinished story by Charlotte Bronte. It was published with an introduction by W. M. Thackeray which includes a bit of Latin. I am uncertain how to pronounce these and after reading some guides am further unsure if I should attempt the Reconstructed Ancient Pronunciation or the English Method which I assume is how Mr. Thackeray would have heard them in his own head!

These are the words in context:

They say our words, once out of our lips, go traveling in omne oevum, reverberating forever and ever.

The heart, newly awakened to love and happiness, and throbbing with maternal hope, was soon to cease to beat; that intrepid outspeaker and champion of truth, that eager, impetuous redresser of wrong, was to be called out of the worlds fight and struggle, to lay down the shining arms, and to be removed to a sphere where even a noble indignation cor ulterius nequit lacerare, and where truth complete, and right triumphant, no longer need to wage war.

I can only say of this lady, vidi tantum.

If a helpful someone will advise me about which pronunciation scheme is most appropriate, whether the vowels are long or short and which syllable to stress I will attempt to pronounce it with my
So. California english.

Thank you,
ginny

TimoleonWash
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Post by TimoleonWash » October 30th, 2014, 4:13 pm

Hi Ginny,

I am no expert but I have researched this and discovered the following:

1) Latin is a dead language and no human alive today knows how it was pronounced by the old folks, unless by luck.

2) As Latin was dying out the Romance Languages were developing.

3) Over the first few centuries after the fall of the Western Roman Empire around AD 450, the developing Romance Languages began to pronounce Latin with their own, Romance Language vowel set.

4) The Roman Catholic Church, of course, pronounce Latin with the Italian vowel set, but any Romance Vowel set is as 'correct' as another.

When I pronounce Latin, I use the Spanish Vowel set though most folks use the Italian vowels. Instead of all long, hard, A, E, I, O, U; it becomes, Ah, A, E, O, U. For instance, "vidi" becomes "vede". If I many recommend, pick the vowel set from any of the Romance Languages; Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese.

For non-vowels, there is much agreement on the following: "G" is hard, Game, not Gym. "Ph" is "F", each vowel gets its own syllable.
If you create and your creation is destroyed, create anyway. (paraphrasing Mother Teresa) . . Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

dread
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Location: Binghamton, NY

Post by dread » December 28th, 2014, 6:42 pm

Recording Section 57 of The Monastery by Walter Scott, I encountered a fairly lengthy Latin passage which proved too much for me. I need someone who knows Latin to record it so I can paste it in.

CARTA REGIS ROBERTI I. ABBATI ET CONVENTUI DE MELROSS.

_Carta de Pitancia Centum Librarum._

Robertus Dei gracia Rex Scottorum omnibus probis hominibus tocius terre
sue Salutem. Sciatis nos pro salute anime nostre et pro salute animarum
antecessorum et suocessorum nostrorum Regum Scocie Dedisse Concessisse
et hac presenti Carta nostra confirmasse Deo et Beate Marie virgini et
Religiosis viris Abbati et Conventui de Melross et eorum successoribus
in perpetuum Centum Libras Sterlingorum Annui Redditus singulis annis
percipiendas de firmis nostris Burgi Berwici super. Twedam ad terminos
Pentecostis et Sancti Martini in hyeme pro equali portione vel de nova
Custuma nostra Burgi predicti si firme nostre predicte ad dictam summam
pecunie sufficere non poterunt vel de nova Custuma nostra Burgorum
nostrorum de Edenburg et de Hadington Si firme nostre et Custuma nostra
ville Berwici aliquo casu contingente ad hoc forte non sufficiant. Ita
quod dicta summa pecunie Centum Librarum eis annuatim integre et
absque contradictione aliqua plenarie persolvatur pre cunctis aliis
quibuscunque assignacionibus per nos factis seu faciendis ad inveniendum
in perpetunm singulis diebus cuilibet monacho monasterii predicti
comedenti in Refectorio unum sufficiens ferculum risarum factarum
cum lacte, amigdalarum vel pisarum sive aliorum ciborum consimilis
condicionis inventornm in patria et illud ferculum ferculum Regis
vocabitur in eternum. Et si aliquis monachus ex aliqua causa honesta de
dicto ferculo comedere noluerit vel refici non poterit non minus
attamen sibi de dicto ferculo ministretur et ad portam pro pauperibus
deportetur. Nec volumus quod occasione ferculi nostri predicti prandium
dicti Conventus de quo antiquitus communiter eis deserviri sive
ministrari solebat in aliquo pejoretur seu diminuatur. Volum us insuper
et ordinamus quod Abbas ejusdem monasterii qui pro tempore fuerit de
cousensu saniorum de Conventu specialiter constituat unum monachum
providum et discretum ad recipiendum ordinandum et expendendum totam
summam pecunie memorate pro utilitate conventus secundum votum et
intencionem mentis nostre superius annotatum et ad reddendum fidele
compotum coram Abbate et Maioribus de Conventu singulis annis de pecunia
sic recepta. Et volumus quod dicti religiosi teneantur annuatim in
perpetuum pro predicta donacione nostra ad perpetuam nostri memoriam
vestire quindecim pauperes ad festum Sancti Martini in hieme et eosdem
cibare eodem die liberando eorum cuilibet quatuor ulnas panni grossi
et lati vel sex ulnas panni stricti et eorum cuilibet unum novum par
sotularium de ordine suo. Et si dicti religiosi in premissis vel
aliquo premissorum aliquo anno defecerint volumus quod illud quod
minus perimpletum fuerit dupplicetur diebus magis necessariis per visum
capitalis forestarii nostri de Selkirk, qui pro tempore fuerit. Et quod
dicta dupplicatio fiat ante natale domini proximo sequens festum Sancti
Martini predictum. In cujus rei testimonium presenti Carte nostre
sigillum nostrum precipimus apponi. Testibus venerabilibus in Christo
patribus Willielmo, Johanne, Willielmo et David Sancti Andree,
Glasguensis, Dunkeldensis et Moraviensis ecclesiarum dei gracia
episcopis Bernardo Abbate de Abirbrothock Cancellario, Duncano, Malisio,
et Hugone de Fyf de Strathin et de Ross, Comitibus Waltero Senescallo
Scocie, Jacobo domini de Duglas et Alexandro Fraser Camerario nostro
Socie militibus. Apud Abirbrothock, decimo die Januarij. Anno Regni
nostri vicesimo.]

-- dread
The range of literature is as wide as humanity. It touches every feeling, every hope, every craving of the human heart. -- David Jordan

TimoleonWash
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Post by TimoleonWash » December 28th, 2014, 9:38 pm

Dread, if you get no takers, I could rewrite the Latin text so that it would be easy for you to pronounce though you would need to practice a bit I imagine.

For instance, I would rewrite the first few words: "Robertus Dei gracia Rex Scottorum"
as
Ro-bar-tus Da-e grah-ce-ah Rex Scot-tor-um" with all vowels being long, hard, as in 'bar' not pronounced like the counter to buy drinks at, but 'bare', a long 'a'.
If you create and your creation is destroyed, create anyway. (paraphrasing Mother Teresa) . . Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

dread
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 30th, 2010, 12:41 pm
Location: Binghamton, NY

Post by dread » December 29th, 2014, 4:27 am

TimoleonWash wrote:Dread, if you get no takers, I could rewrite the Latin text so that it would be easy for you to pronounce though you would need to practice a bit I imagine.

For instance, I would rewrite the first few words: "Robertus Dei gracia Rex Scottorum"
as
Ro-bar-tus Da-e grah-ce-ah Rex Scot-tor-um" with all vowels being long, hard, as in 'bar' not pronounced like the counter to buy drinks at, but 'bare', a long 'a'.
That would be great! (BTW, I found your previous post very helpful.) Let's wait till after the New Year's hoopla. If no one has come forth by then, I will take you up on your offer. In fact, you might even be able to do fewer lines than the whole thing, giving me a pattern to follow.

-- dread
The range of literature is as wide as humanity. It touches every feeling, every hope, every craving of the human heart. -- David Jordan

tony123
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Joined: July 22nd, 2011, 4:34 pm
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

Post by tony123 » December 30th, 2014, 11:52 am

dread wrote: Let's wait till after the New Year's hoopla. If no one has come forth by then, I will take you up on your offer. In fact, you might even be able to do fewer lines than the whole thing, giving me a pattern to follow.

-- dread
Dread,

I'll do a recording for you if you like. I'll use church Latin, which is mainly influenced by Italian pronunciation.

I'll wait until after the New Year also. That may also avoid duplicating someone else's work in case they've already started recording for you.

Best,

Tony

dread
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 30th, 2010, 12:41 pm
Location: Binghamton, NY

Post by dread » December 31st, 2014, 4:39 am

tony123 wrote:
dread wrote: Let's wait till after the New Year's hoopla. If no one has come forth by then, I will take you up on your offer. In fact, you might even be able to do fewer lines than the whole thing, giving me a pattern to follow.

-- dread
Dread,

I'll do a recording for you if you like. I'll use church Latin, which is mainly influenced by Italian pronunciation.

I'll wait until after the New Year also. That may also avoid duplicating someone else's work in case they've already started recording for you.

Best,

Tony
Yes, thanks, Tony. I would like to do that. Let me know if you want your own copy of that text.

-- dread (Bill)
The range of literature is as wide as humanity. It touches every feeling, every hope, every craving of the human heart. -- David Jordan

dread
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 30th, 2010, 12:41 pm
Location: Binghamton, NY

Post by dread » December 31st, 2014, 4:44 am

TimoleonWash --

I think I have a reader. So you won't have to go thru the phonetic translation for me. But I do appreciate your generous offer. And I intend to keep you in mind if other Latin situations come up. Latin experts are a rarity these days! :)

-- dread
The range of literature is as wide as humanity. It touches every feeling, every hope, every craving of the human heart. -- David Jordan

tony123
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Joined: July 22nd, 2011, 4:34 pm
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

Post by tony123 » December 31st, 2014, 8:39 am

dread wrote:
Yes, thanks, Tony. I would like to do that. Let me know if you want your own copy of that text.

-- dread (Bill)
Bill,

I copied the Latin text you posted above, so I should be set to go in a few days.

:D Happy New Year!

Tony

TimoleonWash
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Joined: February 28th, 2014, 1:38 am
Location: USA, California, San Diego
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Post by TimoleonWash » December 31st, 2014, 12:21 pm

dread and tony123, Merry Post XMAS,

O how I wish I were a Latin expert. The best I've done is rewrite some stuff in my personal phonetic script and then I have to practice a bit to recite it smoothly. I'm guessing that you, tony123, can just pick it up and read it aloud. I wish I could, or even read it to myself.

I wish the both of you luck and have every expectation you won't need it to produce a superior recording.
If you create and your creation is destroyed, create anyway. (paraphrasing Mother Teresa) . . Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

tony123
Posts: 1485
Joined: July 22nd, 2011, 4:34 pm
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

Post by tony123 » January 2nd, 2015, 12:52 pm

Section 57 of The Monastery by Walter Scott- Latin recording for Dread:

Bill,

Here's the recording.

I proof read it carefully, but if someone checks it over and finds an error, I'll be glad to correct it. Just post another message here, and I'll see it and upload a corrected copy.

Best,

Tony

https://librivox.org/uploads/xx-nonproject/Latin_recording_for_Dread.mp3

dread
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 30th, 2010, 12:41 pm
Location: Binghamton, NY

Post by dread » January 4th, 2015, 10:16 am

tony123 wrote:Section 57 of The Monastery by Walter Scott- Latin recording for Dread:

Bill,

Here's the recording.

I proof read it carefully, but if someone checks it over and finds an error, I'll be glad to correct it. Just post another message here, and I'll see it and upload a corrected copy.

Best,

Tony

https://librivox.org/uploads/xx-nonproject/Latin_recording_for_Dread.mp3
Thanks, Tony. I will be working with it soon. I appreciate your taking the time to do this.

-- Bill
The range of literature is as wide as humanity. It touches every feeling, every hope, every craving of the human heart. -- David Jordan

dread
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 30th, 2010, 12:41 pm
Location: Binghamton, NY

Post by dread » January 5th, 2015, 6:19 am

Tony --

And success! I have spliced in your excellent Latin passage. The entire project, The Monastery, including Section 57, should be available soon as a finished product. Thank you again for taking the time to help make this recording complete.

-- Bill
The range of literature is as wide as humanity. It touches every feeling, every hope, every craving of the human heart. -- David Jordan

dread
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 30th, 2010, 12:41 pm
Location: Binghamton, NY

Post by dread » July 4th, 2015, 2:47 pm

I need help with a brief passage from Persius.

Nec pluteum coedi, nec demorsos sapit ungues.


-- dread
The range of literature is as wide as humanity. It touches every feeling, every hope, every craving of the human heart. -- David Jordan

tovarisch
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Post by tovarisch » July 5th, 2015, 5:23 am

I think it's caedit (Not 'coedi'), so do check; it makes no sense with 'coedi', so if the expression is
"Nec pluteum caedit, nec demorsos sapit ungues", the pronunciation is something like

neck PLOO-teh-oom KAY-dit, neck deh-MOR-sos SAH-pit OON-qwess
tovarisch
  • reality prompts me to scale down my reading, sorry to say
    to PLers: do correct my pronunciation please

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