"Stealing" public domain - people who sell LibriVo

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SmokestackJones
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Post by SmokestackJones » November 20th, 2009, 8:08 pm

What the hell was that all about?

-SJ
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neerajanagarajan
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Post by neerajanagarajan » November 21st, 2009, 12:45 am

SmokestackJones wrote:What the hell was that all about?

-SJ
Ditto. :shock:

Lucy_k_p
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Post by Lucy_k_p » November 21st, 2009, 5:18 am

WeLoveOurPets -

I think the objection to what you did comes from the fact that you appeared to be trying to get 'something for nothing.'

E-bay sellers who put our work on CD provide a service - some people (especially the elderly and visually impaired) find it hard to put our works onto CD themselves. It also means that people don't have to struggle with the sometimes large download times associated with longer works and the possible nuisance of corrupted downloads that results. Additionally these sellers usually charge only $1 or $2, enough to cover the cost of the blank CD, with only a few cents for themselves.

You are charging $14 for access to MP3 files that are available for free elsewhere. And you don't appear to have done anything to the files that makes the $14 mark-up worthwhile. So while you are well within your legal rights to do this (and I can understand that in this financial climate, making some extra money is on the top of everyone's minds) people are looking upon it as a bit of a con.

I don't object to people using my recordings in whatever way they see fit, but I do object to them attempting to 'fleece' the general public, using Librivox recordings or some other method.

If you object to this assessment, perhaps you could tell me why the files you provided were worth $14 more than the files Librivox provides?
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Caliban
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Post by Caliban » November 21st, 2009, 6:22 am

Pipesdreams,

Don't know you well enough to call you Moira and I fear, as an afterthought, my cute little post may have offended. I most certainly do not take your feelings about work you sweated over as a gift to the public domain being exploited for personal profit lightly. But domain is domain and you have to be careful about what you give away.

If I could offer any solace it would be to check the number of downloads you have that are getting through to the public at Archive.org. Did you know art of war has over 161,000 downloads? All those recordings going the way you intended! Even my stuff (ahem!) has over 30,000. I know, I check it almost daily. (I AM NOT VAIN!)

Please don't worry about your work going astray. It isn't.

But I would take anything as personal as your name off anything you put into the domain.

I hope this helps.

Cal
We're so different! I sometimes wonder why we are friends. Then you remind me.

Nicholas19
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Post by Nicholas19 » November 21st, 2009, 3:04 pm

Lucy_k_p wrote:WeLoveOurPets -

I think the objection to what you did comes from the fact that you appeared to be trying to get 'something for nothing.'
I agree entirely. Just because someone CAN do something, doesn't mean they SHOULD do something. Anyone would find it objectionable that someone is charging for mp3 downloads that could be found elsewhere. If one doesn't know about LibriVox, one could mistakenly end up paying for such downloads. Imagine the regret when he/she discovers LibriVox afterwards! I know I would regret wasting my money, if such a thing ever happened to me! This seller does offer refunds, but why should anyone have to pay in the first place? The only way this wouldn't be deliberately misleading would be if the website had a very visible disclaimer saying that all files can be downloaded from Librivox.org FOR FREE.

Nicholas

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Post by WeLoveOurPets » November 21st, 2009, 4:02 pm

[The following reply is our latest attempt to reach consensus here at LibriVox and to facilitate conflict resolution.

As long as this thread remain alive, we have no choice but to assume that the matter has not been resolve. By now, any reference to "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain" should have been deleted by now.

We have noticed a trickle of negative criticism posted after Steampunk's "BE NICE" and "HAVE FUN".

Why post more negative comments? Isn't the matter closed?

Let's try again, please. It is imperative that we reach consensus here at LibriVox.


Perhaps this should have been the original reply instead. Anyone agree?]


Moira,

We at Wil's Domain are rational, understanding, and fair. But most of all, we are very concerned about your heightened anxieties, anger and fears.

Because you requested that you DO NOT want "attribution," your good name "Moira Fogarty" has been deleted from our site. Your "unexplained decision" to decline "attribution" as being the narrator of the "Sun Tzu: The Art of War" recordings has been duly noted and will not be questioned by us. However, any "smart" and "civic" person here at LibriVox realizes that no one is exploiting the "good name of Moira Fogarty."

Your negative criticism here is very un-librivoxy, as well as any other individual who has posted negative criticism without contacting directly us for the facts for him or herself. :(

Moreover, our offering of the "temporarily discontinued" mp3 recordings also includes "3 unadvertised bonus recordings," each of which we have PAID to produce. Yes, we have PAID to produce 3 high quality recordings as a "thank you gits" to our customers (a proven and shocking fact which renders your statements false and malicious in nature).

Because we have "PAID" to produce these "3 unadvertised bonus recordings," we are justified in recouping our production expenses (as well as making a tiny profit to fund our We Love Our Pets and anti-Child abuse campaigns.

Moreover, we hold the "COPYRIGHT" on our 3 unadvertised recordings. Neither you or any other "negative critic" here at LibriVox are considering the fact that we are the rightful "COPYRIGHT HOLDER" of "our 3 recordings," for which we paid to produce. :(

We are taken aback that you were allowed to post negative criticism without contacting us first to "get the facts," prior to you smearing "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain."

We strongly urge you to "BE NICE" and visit the following Web page on LiBriVox's site and read every word on the Web page very carefully: http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Forum_Policies

Because you "apparently" have not read LibriVox's "Terms of Service," your contributions to the "PUBLIC DOMAIN" are now suspect. No reasonable person believe your far-fetched allegations here. :(

Would you or any other negative critic care to explain "our inclusion of those unadvertised 3 recordings" to everyone here at LibriVox?

If you cannot do so, we would like you to "BE NICE" and "retract" your false and malicious allegations about "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain," as well well as deleting any link to "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain. We are not your enemy, Moira. We are your allies.

Unfortunately, your negative criticism may cause LibriVox to appear to support posting "false and malicious statements" and "negative criticism" against third-party Web sites or individuals "unrelated" to LibriVox's areas of interests. :(

Our "3 unadvertised recordings" are just one of many "proven facts" which render your negative and unwarranted charges very very very un-librivoxy. Negative thinking led to atrocities during the infamous Spanish and Papal "Inquisition Periods," during which time many innocent people were wrongly persecuted, humiliated and tortured... many of whom summarily murdered with a "fair trail." :(

Being "negative" is not deemed "BEING NICE" here at LibriVox. :(

Like any other legitimate online reseller, we offer a "MONEY BACK GUARANTEE" and the "3 UNADVERTISED BONUSES" to our highly valued customers. We truly offer "quality service with a smile." Imagine if you were one of our customers at Wil's Domain. We would have promptly responded to your email as we have done here at LibriVox.

The fact that our immediately replying to your "concerns" is indicative of our replying to "dissatisfied" customers in an expedient manner.

Please read the Forum Policies at: http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Forum_Policies

The fact is "Wil Ford or "Wil's Domain" ARE NOT "profit-mongering scumbags." In essence, your negative and unwarranted criticism is very un-librivoxy. You are "NOT BEING NICE," Moira. Your reaction is very un-librivoxy. :(

LibriVox is a place for fun, excitement and connecting with humankind around the world. There is no place for negative criticism here. Moreover, false and malicious statements are very un-librivoxy. :(

Moira, any rational person knows that "profit-mongering scumbags..."

DO NOT offer anyone a money back guarantee,

DO NOT offer advertised bonuses (which cost $$$ to produce),

DO NOT operate transparently either online or offline,

and DO NOT offer customer support. Period.

... Yet, your negative and unwarranted criticism were allowed to be posted here at LibriVox "as fact." How very very very un-librivoxy. :(

Please read the Forum Policies at: http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Forum_Policies

But we digress,

Yes, we can understand your anger, frustration and anxieties. However, your libeling "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain" here at LibriVox is very senselessly un-librivoxy.

Also, anyone who "FEIGNS" that he or she cannot comprehend what this and the earlier replies are conveying is very un-librivoxy. :(

Also, anyone who "FEIGNS" that he or she believe that we have "abused" you is absurd and very un-librivoxy. :(

Sadly, false and malicious allegations are posted here at LibriVox by those who have NOT NEVER purchased the Sun Tzu: The Art of War recordings from our site to check out the "3 military recordings" for themselves. How un-librivoxy! :(

Please read the Forum Policies at: http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Forum_Policies

Most importantly, we honor ALL "money back guarantee" requests. Period. We have nothing to hide. What we do at Wil's Domain does NOT constitute criminality! Therefore, your false and malicious comments here are unwarranted and without merit. :(

Please read the Forum Policies at: http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Forum_Policies

Moira, it is unfortunate that you opted to avoid contacting us directly prior to your posting "Wil Ford" or "Wil's Domain" as a "profit-mongering scumbags" and "warmongers" here at LibriVox.

Your unexplained decision to avoid contacting us here at Wil's Domain prior to your posting negative criticism here under the guise as "seeking advice" is very un-librivoxy and deceptive. That is very un-librivoxy. :(

Because you subtlety inferred that "Wil Ford" is a "warmonger," the following statement has been previously stated:

"I am NOT Paul Josef Goebbels, Moira. Moreover, I have previously stated that I am NOT a Reichsminister of Propaganda for German dictator Adolf Hitler."

You are spoiling the fun here at LibriVox, Moira.

Lighten up and "BE NICE" and read the Forum Policies at: http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Forum_Policies

Regarding sales, PayPal can attest to the fact NO SALE has been made to date. NO SALE has been made yet because we have posted the sales page in time for the upcoming holidays. We do not use PPC promotion but rely on the delivery of visitors from our natural search engine marketing efforts.

Amazingly, your timing is utterly amazing, Moira. Yes, amazing. :(

We do not use PPC promotion or PAID advertising but rely on the delivery of visitors from our natural search engine marketing efforts.

Because we at Wil's Domain live below our means, we are in no hurry to make "millions" of dollars. We are simply pleased to generate extra $75 or $150 a month in "profits" from the sale of the recordings which would prove very nice. :D

By producing CDs, we realize we will incur additional charges, cutting into the "profits" we would otherwise fund our worthy projects. Don't worry, we have many other ideas, which does not involved "PUBLIC DOMAIN" works.

For your information, "Sun Tzu: The Art of War" is the "ONE and ONLY PUBLIC DOMAIN" work with which we are considering to raise money for our fundraisers. To date, we are sorry to report to you that your recordings have NOT resulted in a SINGLE sale, yet. Due to the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of competitors online, that task would prove to be overwhelming. :(

Nonetheless, we are cooperating with you, "an aspiring narrator," and are taking remedial actions to ensure your "anonymity." We acknowledge that you have declined our "attribution" offer.

Regarding Lucy_k_p and your unfounded assertions, please read the following statement very very carefully:

One of the MANY goals of "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain" is to develop and execute a strategic plan to offer the "Sun Tzu: The Art of War" (or The Art of War by Sun Tzu) recordings (along with our our "3 unadvertised recordings") to many active duty members of the U.S. Armed Forces — serving around the world — who are not accessible to the Internet.

The families of these self-sacrificing American troops can purchase the aforementioned products, download them an later "burn" (ahem) them on CDs and later ship the newly-burned CD recordings to their loved ones around the world, those of whom are not accessible to the Internet.

We hope many "smart" and "civic" people here at LibriVox understand that many women and men of the U.S. Armed Forces are deployed overseas, most of whom are not accessible to the Internet and are not afforded the luxury many of you enjoy and take for granted every day. "Sun Tzu: The Art of War" is not propaganda, Moira. Please acting like a snob. Please regain your senses and "BE NICE" here at LibriVox. :D

Isn't it ironic that you choice to read "Sun Tzu: The Art of War," a military treatise. Your portraying "Wil Ford" and others as being war-mongers is "NOT NICE."

So, please "BE NICE," Moira, and read the Forum Policies at: http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Forum_Policies

Because of the negative criticism of "Moira Fogarty," we here at Wil's Domain have decided to PAY additional costs of producing "Sun Tzu: The Art of War" on "CD" to "lessen" the heightened anxieties, anger and fears of "Moira Fogarty."

We at Wil's Domain support our American troops... because freedom is not FREE! Moreover, we use the profit to fund many random acts of human kindness, about which any negative critic here at LibriVox is not acknowledging. How unfair! How un-librivoxy. :(

It is unfortunate that "false and malicious statements" have been allowed to here at LibriVox by those who are "feigning" ignorance of the "TRUTH." That is very un-librivoxy. PERIOD! :(

Nonetheless, "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain" do not have any animosity towards anyone here. For the record, we are only one of the FEW individuals online who is properly giving you, "Moira Fogarty" proper "attribution" for the outstainding service you rendered.

Any reasonable person realize that we are replying without malice and are discounting ANY and ALL false and malicious statements posted here at LibriVox against "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain." Any reasonable person realize our position.

Strangely, THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of online resellers are selling the "recordings," while a FEW are actually "CLAIMING" to hold copyright to the "PUBLIC DOMAIN" recordings, based on the "good work of the late Victorian scholar Lionel Giles and your "voice over talent" for personal gain.

You make it seems we have made millions. With thousands of resellers online, how could that be impossible?

One would have to sell over "75,000 copies" at $14 per sale to achieve such monumental feat.

Yes, Lionel Giles' should be enjoy by all, whether one obtains the "PUBLIC DOMAIN" work "freely" or for a "price."

Amazon.com is selling your "PUBLIC DOMAIN" contribution as well as many major online merchants.

Please be reasonable. Don't single "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain" to your disgust for "profit-mongering scumbags" and "warmongers." Don't get us involved. Don't get it, twisted, fellow human being. We are your allies here at LibriVox not your enemies. :D

Wikipedia states:

"Lionel Giles (1875 – 1958) was a Victorian scholar, translator and the son of British diplomat and sinologist, Herbert Giles. Lionel Giles served as assistant curator at the British Museum and Keeper of the Department of Oriental Manuscripts and Printed Books. Lionel Giles is most notable for his 1910 translation of "The Art of War by Sun Tzu," respected by many military strategists for his Taoist views."

It very odd that you narrated Lionel Giles' translation of "The Art of War by Sun Tzu", who held Taoist view. That fact renders your assertions outlandish.

In fact, "Wil Ford" or "Wil's Domain" are NOT using late scholar's work as war propaganda. That is a blatant lie which must be retracted immediately and for which a "public apology" must be posted on this site for ALL to see.

Check it the Life of late Mr. Giles for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Giles

Perhaps your time time should be better spent positive producing more outstanding recordings like the The Art of War by Sun Tzu" recordings. Your posting "false and malicious statements" about "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain" is very injurious and also un-librivoxy. Very un-librivoxy. :(

We are not against you. We are for you. We stand with you. We truly support your outstanding performance. Moreover, we continue to support your future endeavors. But let us all be reasonable here. Any rational person would understand what we care trying to convey here, Moira.

We understand your disgust; however, why libel your "fellow allies" here at LibriVox or anywhere online or offline.

Moira, any work released to the "PUBLIC DOMAIN" is use for many people for many reasons.

Explain what was stolen?

Why libel people without merit?

Why inflame this thread with utter rubbish?

Because we are "smart" and "civic" at Wil's Domain, we have found a solution:

We at Wil's Domain are highly confident, as a result of our remedial actions, that all parties will be satisfied. Once we have produce the CDs, the offer will be place back on the site. We will be offering "CDs."

Yes, we will be offering the "Sun Tzu: The Art of War" on CDs for sale on our site soon.

Regarding our pricing, we are justified in recouping our expenses of the unadvertised, 3 additional recordings as well as raising funds for worthy causes and supporting random acts of human kindness.

You deserved your good name "Moira Fogarty." Take care, Moira. We mean that with sincerely. You now have your "good name back of Moira Fogarty," meaning that your declining attribution has been duly noted.

We do not feel any animosity toward you. We do not harbor an hostility. Because you have refused "attribution" as narrator, your request has been granted. Nothing is more rewarding than what you have accomplished: masterfully narrating Sun Tzu: The Art of War.

I, Wil Ford, commend you for an outstanding narration. However, your inciting others to post negative criticism post is without merit is unfortunate and troubling. In fact, it is very un-librivoxy.

I wish you would have contacted us prior to deciding to "bombastically abusing the "good name of Wil Ford" here at "LibriVox." Your integrity as a contributor is obvious.

What you have consented to released to the "PUBLIC DOMAIN" is forever out of your grasp. Please understand that we are dishonoring the "sweat equity" you have selflessly invested in the production of one of the finest rendition of "Sun Tzu; The Art of War."

You have masterfully recorded the late Lionel Giles' work and whether you like it or not the "PUBLIC DOMAIN" recording will float around the World Wide Web forever.

Yes, many will profit from your "sweat equity;" however, we at Wil's Domain vow we will forever respect and honor that tremendous efforts and great sacrifice you have made.

We are not your enemies, Moira. we are your allies and fellow e-citizens of LibroVox.

Unfortunately, your "Un-niceness" is not only shocking but also very un-librivoxy here at "LibriVox."

Your malicious and false charges of "theft" and "exploitation of your good name Moira Fogarity" prove very very very un-librivoxy here at LibriVox. :(

Please don't misunderstand us: We don't feel any animosity toward you. We do not harbor any ill feelings toward you. Sadly, your negative negative, inflammatory criticism prompted this vigorous reply. Moreover, you unfortunate decision to libel "innocent" has spoiled the fun for everyone here at LibriVox and resulted in this online debate about this unnecessary "PUBLIC DOMAIN" works.

What one release to the "PUBLIC DOMAIN" shall forever remain in the "PUBLIC DOMAIN." If that were not your intentions, you should have thought twice of what you contribute here. Whose fault is that?

I, Wil Ford, have personally forgiven you and have dismissed your false and malicious statements here as a total lapse of judgment.

Please be careful what you post online in the future, unless you have the facts to back your "claims." The end result of sloppiness online may prove problematic for any person who thinks before he or she leaps.

Regarding your attribution request, we shall honor it without question. We have made a screenshot of your comments here for our records to support the fact that you have forever surrender you right to attribution, which is unfortunate because we thought we were doing you a great service to give you FREE publicity as a masterful narrator.

However, if you ever change you mind, you know where ot go to discuss "reinstatement" of "attribution."

Take care. You are the greatest, Moira. I mean that with sincerity. :D

Wil and the Wil's Domain team

Lucy_k_p
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Post by Lucy_k_p » November 21st, 2009, 4:53 pm

WeLoveOurPets -
The families of these self-sacrificing American troops can purchase the aforementioned products, download them an later "burn" (ahem) them on CDs and later ship the newly-burned CD recordings to their loved ones around the world, those of whom are not accessible to the Internet.
Or the families of these self-sacrificing American troops can download the recordings from Librivox FOR FREE and later "burn" (ahem) them onto CDs and later ship the newly-burned CD recordings to their loved ones around the world, who cannot easily access to the Internet.

Additionally your long posts, with their frequent repetition and misused legalese do nothing to convince me that you are a legitimate vendor.
We do not feel any animosity toward you. We do not harbor an hostility
You repeat this and yet repeatedly accuse Moira of being 'unlibrivoxy'. If you you harbour no hostility, why keep harping on about it?
Would you or any other negative critic care to explain "our inclusion of those unadvertised 3 recordings" to everyone here at LibriVox?
Since they are unadvertised, we only have your word that they were intended to be part of the product. And now that the product has been discontinued it is impossible for me to confirm or deny their existence, even if I were inclined to spend $14 to find out for certain.

Also, I am being nice. I am politely disagreeing with you. Polite disagreement is allowed and is completely 'librivoxy'.
So little space, so much to say.

WeLoveOurPets
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Post by WeLoveOurPets » November 21st, 2009, 6:20 pm

I think the objection to what you did comes from the fact that you appeared to be trying to get 'something for nothing.'
We understand that, Lucy_k_p.
You repeat this and yet repeatedly accuse Moira of being 'unlibrivoxy'. If you you harbour no hostility, why keep harping on about it?
Why is the "scumbag" and "warmonger" references to "Wil Ford" amd "Wil's Domain" remain intact?

Explain to us whether those negative reference constitute one as being un-librivoxy here at LibriVox?

Caliban
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Post by Caliban » November 21st, 2009, 6:37 pm

Sorry, But WeLoveOurPets is obviously not a reader and isn't contributing anything to Librivox but grief in my humble opinion. Once again, I regret my flippant remarks in this matter and hope all those concerned will forgive me leaping before looking.

With deepest apologies,

Cal
We're so different! I sometimes wonder why we are friends. Then you remind me.

Steampunk
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Post by Steampunk » November 21st, 2009, 9:09 pm

Without weighing in or taking sides, I have removed the wilsdomain.com link from the opening post since the requested action (removal of Sun Tzu) has been taken.


Jim

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Post by Nicholas19 » November 22nd, 2009, 2:52 am

WeLoveOurPets wrote:[The following reply is our latest attempt to reach consensus here at LibriVox and to facilitate conflict resolution.

As long as this thread remain alive, we have no choice but to assume that the matter has not been resolve. By now, any reference to "Wil Ford" and "Wil's Domain" should have been deleted by now.

We have noticed a trickle of negative criticism posted after Steampunk's "BE NICE" and "HAVE FUN".

Why post more negative comments? Isn't the matter closed?


Why have you posted your long, long comments AGAIN??? The simple fact of the matter is, what was happening with your website was misleading. Whether legal or not, it is ridiculous to charge for downloading LibriVox recordings that can be freely downloaded from Internet Archive or the LibriVox catalogue. That is the simple fact of the matter. If you are going to start selling CDs, fine, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is unfair to charge for downloads that are freely available here and that is what has been happening on your website until recently.

Nicholas

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Post by BellonaTimes » November 22nd, 2009, 5:48 pm

WeLoveOurPets wrote: Lastly, would you please kindly ask BellonaTimes to delete the statement about inflecting bodily harm on a "U.S.Marine?" (Be nice, BellonaTimes.) :D
Comment redacted
(and it was a joke remark in defense of a lady and fellow volunteer)
They call me Threadkiller.
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WeLoveOurPets
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Post by WeLoveOurPets » January 19th, 2010, 10:40 am

FACT: the recordings were purchased "as is" from a third source.

Moira, why didn't you inform us while you were at Wil's Domain? My having to open a comment account and post a reply to your allegations over here at Librivox wouldn't have been necessary. Why didn't you contact us directly about your concerns while you were at our site?

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Post by y2kdaddio » January 21st, 2010, 6:07 am

While sitting here, sipping my morning coffee, I read through this thread and tried to remain objective. I can see both sides of the "story". As one poster said, "just because you can do something, it does not mean you should". I guess the whole topic focuses on one's morality and what one believes is fair.

Perhaps Librivox needs to add or modify the disclaimer at the beginning of all recordings. Something like -

"All Librivox recordings are in the public domain and available for free download at Librivox dot org"

As a personal thought......I put many hours of effort into my recordings and often go out of my way to ensure certain pronunciations are as close to correct as I can make them. Are my recordings professional? Certainly not, or I would be doing this for a living and selling them myself. Still, many of us do this with no thought to financial reimbursement to ourselves or to others. In my opinion (and we all know what opinions are like), one should probably not "sell" Librivox recordings unless they are adding value. Then they are certainly entitled to a fair return based on the value they add.

Just one man's opinion......that and a buck can get you a cup of coffee......some places.

Villette
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Post by Villette » January 21st, 2010, 11:09 am

One wonders if WeLoveOurPets has ever heard the old adage, "Brevity is the soul of wit"...

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