"Stealing" public domain - people who sell LibriVo

[pipesdreams]

Hi there,

I've recorded a few solo efforts, and took great pains to make sure my recordings were high quality (no background noise, no mic pops or crackles) and have since found MANY people selling my recordings, stripped of their LibriVox disclaimers, for profit all over the Internet.

This bothers me for two reasons:

1) I do this mostly to get recordings of more obscure works (like Milton's Areopagitica, for example) read and available for people who want to listen to them, but also to record works that are more popular (like Jane Austen) that I love, so people can enjoy FREE good-quality recordings of books that are near & dear to me. The practice of selling my solo works for profit means that the unwitting or unwise, which could include low income groups who don't know much about the way the web works like seniors, are paying for something they should always be able to get for free.

2) I record in my very scarce free time, and am receiving no profit personally from my recordings, so it irks me that people who are doing nothing more than editing out the part of the recording that marks it as my work are making money off of me - while still using my name! As though I am part of their recording "staff". Grr.

Not sure what to do about this. I am more than halfway through two more large solo projects: one less-popular novel, "Roughing It in the Bush", and one very popular work, "Emma" by Jane Austen. I want to complete these recordings but am quite certain that Emma, at least, will be exploited in the same way my recordings of "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu has been.

Should I record all but one or two chapters, then have a completely different reader do those sections so it's complete for LibriVox's archive, but keep the final chapter on my own website so people who want to hear my complete recording have to contact me for the file? That way it renders the recording relatively unmarketable for profit, but it seems like ruining the experience for many to punish a few bad apples.

Or is there another recourse left to me that I can't see to stop these awful pubic-domain pirates from reselling something that should be free to one and all???

Please advise!

Here are a few examples of these profit-mongering scumbags:
- http://www.emusic.com/artist/Moira-Fogarty-MP3-Download/12185502.html
- [link removed by request]
- http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Unabridged-Sun-Tzu/dp/B0022XXUY6

[chocoholic]

Hi, Moira, there have been quite a few discussions of this (you are not the only one to be taken aback to find that your recordings are being sold) -- I don't have time at the moment to find links. A forum search for "Ebay" would probably pull most of them up.

Our recordings are all in the public domain, so anyone is free to do anything they like with them, including sell them. In fact many of us consider this a good service they are providing, making CD's available for people who can't or don't want to do mp3 downloads (which includes many seniors and people with low incomes as you mentioned). The Ebay sellers, the ones I've seen anyway, don't charge much more than the cost of the blank CD's plus maybe a little bit for their time, so they aren't getting rich by any means.

Somebody somewhere on the Internet is probably selling links to our mp3 files, which yes, is a waste of somebody's money. And we certainly prefer that they leave our Librivox identification in place so listeners can find more of our books (and maybe volunteer too). But what they are doing is perfectly legal and not piracy by any means.

What you propose doing with your solos (having someone else record a few chapters) is entirely up to you, but I don't think it'll stop your recordings being sold.

edit: I just checked your links and see that they are indeed selling the mp3 links. Well, I agree that's a shame, but they are within their rights.

[pipesdreams]

Thanks for your reply, Laurie Anne - was wondering if others had found a good solution to this.

I should clarify that my complaint is NOT specifically about people selling CDs on Ebay: at least those people are adding value to the product, and providing a service to people who may not have bandwidth enough to download my mp3s (I shudder at the thought... ugh, dial-up nightmare!).

What I am irked by are the mp3 resellers like classical123.com who falsely claim copyright over public domain material. See my amazon.com link, above and note that it says my recording is Copyright: (C) 1997 123classical.com - oh no it isn't!

The other sites are just bombastically abusing my name, which I'd rather not have linked to the recording if it's being sold as war propaganda. I know public domain means the *recording* is open for reworking and redistribution, but is my identity also up for sale? I hope not!

[thistlechick]

At least on the Amazon copy you could try posting a "review". Otherwise, you could attempt to contact the sellers and try negotiating with them.

[Cori]

I'd contact eMusic directly, since they've got a music background and are probably more clued up about copyright than some could be ... not sure Amazon would be bothered - but a review would be a good way to go there, since I don't think sellers can edit them. And mebbe contact Wil Ford directly. That's the ickiest one, I think ... all that "money back guarantee" stuff, for a digital download which would be completely free elsewhere.

[BellonaTimes]

The other sites are just bombastically abusing my name, which I'd rather not have linked to the recording if it's being sold as war propaganda. I know public domain means the *recording* is open for reworking and redistribution, but is my identity also up for sale? I hope not!

This is why I use a pseudonym. But seriously, Moira (love that name), talk to a lawyer about the use of your name if it bothers you that much. [Obvious joke remark deleted.]

[RuthieG]

I have just removed a spam link to one of those vendors from our forum. They obviously do not occupy the moral high ground in more ways than one.

In fact, if you wouldn't mind, I should like to make the links in your post inactive, too, so that they don't get more free publicity.

Ruth

[Jc]

One could try to contact Amazon about it. Not sure what the legal grounds would be, though.

I think we've had previous issue with someone else claiming copyright over LibriVox files, and after we've sent them an email about it, they removed their copyright claim. Maybe this could be done here too?

[WeLoveOurPets]

Moira,

I am a rational, fair and understanding person. Moreover, most of all, I am very concerned about your sadness and frustration. Really, I am. I wouldn't be replying to your complaint on LibroVox if I weren't.

To regain your confidence in the U.S. Marine for whom you totally despise and for whom you have absolutely no respect, I will promptly remove the entire Sun Tzu recordings from my site. Moreover, I will remove the files from my Web site and "destroy" them "to alleviate" your heightened sense of anxiety, anger and frustration. Also, your good name "Moira Fogarty" will also be "removed" from my Wil's Domain E-Store and my site Wil's Domain, a social/information network.

I am highly confident, as a result of my prompt actions, that I (Wil Ford, U.S.M.C.) will be deemed as a honorable United States Marine who is rational, fair and understanding. Perhaps you, too, can give me my good name back. However, that would prove impossible because you "venomously labeled" me on this site as a "profit-mongering scumbag." My reputation is now shot. Touché, Moira! Touché! I am wounded!

But, I digress...

Regarding my "using" your identity and good name "Moira Fogarty," chocoholic and the entire LibriVox Admin Team will attest to the fact that I am giving you attribution. Period! I have duly posted that Sun Tzu: Art of War is "narrated by Moira Fogarty."

According to Wikipedia:

"In copyright law, attribution is the requirement to acknowledge or credit the author of a work which is used or appears in another work."

If I were not giving you attribution, that would most definitely constitute a total fraud.

If I had removed your name and later claimed to hold copyright to the Sun Tzu: The Art of War recordings that would also constitute a fraud. Am I correct, Moira?

So, explain to everyone here at LibroVox why giving you attribution constitutes "criminality," Moira? Have you ever read LibroVox's Terms of Service? Giving you attribution is your assurance that your hard word is duly recognized.

Hmmm...

In fact, I am rightfully giving you attribution one of the most visited blog directories on the planet earth: Wil's Domain... the most preferred destination of activist bloggers of virtually every rational niche.

Hmmm... Interesting.

Explain to everyone here at LibroVox why you have opted to infer that "Wil Ford the United Stated Marine" is violating the "identity and good name of Moira Fogarty." ?

Hmmm... Very very interesting.

Explain to everyone here at LibroVox why you "consented to released your work under the Public Domain" and later conveniently cry foul because "Wil Ford the United States Marine" somehow is "profiting from your good name." Would you care to explain your reasoning, Moira?

Your smearing "Wil Ford the United Stated Marine" on LibriVox is not in "congruent" with a person who is "civic" and "smart." If you had contacted me directly, I would have complied out of common courtesy... despite the fact I have the right of fair use any "Public Domain" posted on LibroVox. Nonetheless, I would have complied, Moira. Why not? I am a rational, fair and understanding person. ?

Hmmm... Very very very interesting.

You should have contacted me directly, Moira. If you had the decency to contact me to share your concerns, I would have promptly removed the Sun Tzu recordings immediately. Such a request is not difficult for me. That is why I have posted a "Feedback Page" on my Web site. You should used the Feedback form to notify me immediately, Moira. I am not an anonymous "scumbag" who hides behind a computer screen and weird screen name.

Wow... Amazing!

Why the angst, Moira? Why are you harboring hostility and ill feelings towards me whom you never met while extending compassion or sympathy for resellers on eBay?

What do you think about Google reselling works in the Public Domain? Don't believe me? Google it, Moira! Google it!

You should have contacted me directly. Despite the fact that I have not violated LibroVox's "Terms of Service," I would have respected your request and promptly remove the recordings. Why not? I am a rational, fair and understanding person, Moira.

Prejudice is reprehensible and criminal to one's intellect.

Perhaps you think I am still currently serving in the United States Marine Corps. WRONG!

I am a veteran of the Cold War era who opposes unjust wars done in the name of honest American citizens. I am not a war monger. You should have contacted me directly. How tragic! (Sigh!)

Perhaps you think I am using the profits from your recording to fund "unjust jihad" against the innocent in certain countries that hate America. WRONG AGAIN, Moira Fogarty!

Prejudice is not only reprehensible and criminal to one's intellect it is also injurious one's soul and absolutely STUPID!

Grrr!

You should have contacted me directly, Moira. I am taken aback that you are not the Moira Fogarty I assume you were. It is unfortunate that you have opted to libel me on LibroVox as opposed to contacting me directly about your "concerns." I am a sympathetic and civic person. If you have contacted me instead of smearing me, I would have fulfilled your request without question. I would have also offered you emotional support.

But you opted to go bonkers on LibroVox, the very Web site to which you consented to released the Sun Tzu: The Art of War recordings under the "Public Domain."

Not reading LibroVox's "Terms of Service" is inexcusable.

Libel is criminal and could result in a lawsuit. $$$!

Moreover, it is unfortunate you haven't done your due diligence and read LibroVox's "Terms of Service" prior to your consenting to release the sun Tzu recording into the "Public Domain."

Alas, what a tragedy, Moira! What a shame! What legal recourse do I have! What legal recourse do I have!

Have you wondered why I am transparent on the Internet?

Answer: I have NOTHING to hide. I have absolutely nothing to hide, Moira.

I want to be easily found because I love helping others in need. I run a free blog directory which is one of the most visited sites of its kind in the world. My site Wil's Domain is a gift to humanity.

Yes, you have spent many UNPAID hours to superbly record Lionel Giles' outstanding translation work. Yes, I sincerely understand, Moira! I sincerely understand! However, I founded a social/information network of bloggers. Since the inception of Wil's Domain, I spend many UNPAID hours promoting the works of my fellow bloggers, all of whom also are contributing to humankind... Unpaid!

I am wondering what is actually fueling your anger, Moira. I, Wil Ford, am not like the thousands people who are reselling the LibriVox recordings you produced, most of whom sell on sites like Amazon.com, E-Music.com, etc. Soon, GOOGLE will join the crowd. Boy, Moira, Google will generate a lot of money off your "sweat equity." If that were not your intent, you should have paid more attention to LibroVox Terms of Service...

According to LibroVox:

"others can use our recordings however they wish, including for commercial purposes"

Please read the notice on the "COPYRIGHT AND PUBLIC DOMAIN" page:

The fact is that you made a recording based on Lionel Giles' public domain book: "Sun Tzu: The Art of War." You hold no "copyright" to the late Mr. Giles work. Moreover, you released the recordings under the "Public Domain."

Please... please please read the notice on the "COPYRIGHT AND PUBLIC DOMAIN" page for yourself, Moira.

In fact, I am willing to bet you will be shocked upon your discovering the answer to the following question:

Which of the following three listings have been posted by an individual who has NOT PROFITED from the "identity" of Moira Fogarty or the Sun Tzu recordings?

http://www.emusic.com/artist/Moira-Fogarty-MP3-Download/12185502.html

http://e-store.wilsdomain.com/the-art-of-war-by-sun-tzu/

http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Unabridged-Sun-Tzu/dp/B0022XXUY6

Answer: Wil Ford of Wil's Domain. Surprised?

Here's an easier question, hun:

Which of the following three listings have been posted by an individual who is not a profit-mongering scumbag?

http://www.emusic.com/artist/Moira-Fogarty-MP3-Download/12185502.html

http://e-store.wilsdomain.com/the-art-of-war-by-sun-tzu/

http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Unabridged-Sun-Tzu/dp/B0022XXUY6


Answer: Wil Ford of Wil's Domain. Surprised again?

Are you comprehending what I am trying to convey to you, Moira?

Regarding the sale of Sun Tzu: the Art of War, my site hasn't generated NOT ONE sale of your good name "Moira Fogarty." PayPal.com will attest to the fact iron-clad proof that I have NEVER profited from the recordings. I am utterly amazed that you found the page on which I have posted the info to the late Lionel Giles' translation work.

As I have stated earlier: I am a rational, fair and understanding person.

Nonetheless, I am glad grateful that LibroVox has afforded me the opportunity to reply to your unwarranted allegations and trumped-up charges. Moreover, I am NOT a war propagandist.

I am NOT Paul Josef Goebbels, Moira. Moreover, I am NOT a Reichsminister of Propaganda for German dictator Adolf Hitler. Moira Fogarty, what is your problem?

I am stunned that I am replying to Moira Fogarty, one of LibroVox's talented contributors for whom I have respect and admiration.

Sigh...

I am not your enemy, Moira. I am a "disabled" United States Marine who is using various online and offline fund-raising methods of choice to fund a "pet project" about which I am 100% passionate: stop animal cruelty campaign as evidenced by my Twitter group We Love Our Pets. Check it your self, "Moira Fogarty."

http://twitter.com/WeLoveOurPets


At the time of my posting this reply to your "complaint," nearly 2,000 people are connecting with my "Stop Animal Cruelty" campaign. I am an advocate against "Animal Cruelty" not promoting unjust wars done in the name of honest Americans. Period!

Because you have smeared my name and reputation here at LibroVox, I am entitled to post this lengthy reply.

I am not a monster, Moira. I am committed to bettering humankind, my ethic of kindness, and am taking immediate action to ensure that animal cruelty laws are obeyed. I was hoping to fund both the children rights campaign and the We Love Our Pets with various fund raising. I work UNPAID hours as a volunteer for many "nameless" worthy charities, too.

Don't believe me, check my anti-animal group for yourself:

http://twitter.com/WeLoveOurPets


Also, check the children rights work which I work as a silent worker, exposing the evil of the child sex trade industry:

Please check the video entitled "Little Good Girls vs. Big Evil Monsters (Expose This Secret)" on YouYube, which received nearly 40,000 views. The child sex trade is one other criminal against humanity I vow to combat with my fellow children rights advocates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goLwNgRx1A8


Because you "suggested" that I am using LibroVox recording to promote war propaganda, I thought I would give you a large dose of "reality." I am NOT the money-grabbing fiend you have portrayed here at LibroVox. Defamation is not the answer, Moira. Libel is reckless expression of hate. You should have contacted me in stead of libeling me on LibroVox.

You know my name. You have visited my site. Surely, you could have notify me, Moira. Shame on you!

There is a Feedback page on my site! Shame on you, Moira! You know better! Shame on you!

My involvement in combating against children and animal cruelty renders your rant lame. You should have contacted me in stead of libeling me on LibroVox.

I am a human being. I am not a monster. I am busting my butt day-after-day to raising funds during this recession. Money is tight, Moira. Funding is hard to get now due to the Wall Street scandal and the greed of "corporatists" (don blame honest "capitalists").

The Sun Szu recording could have been a contender. I would have raised funds from the recording for worthy causes. My disability compels me to get involved in anti-animal cruelty campaigns. I am not an evil warmonger. You have the audacity to lecture anyone on ethics and morality!

Green Peace have acknowledge my Weblog entry on the illegal overfishing of Bluefin Tuna! I am not a terrorist! I am not a warmonger!

Do us all a favor and check out the proof, Moira:

Click on the links entitled:

"Nobu, who serve up bluefin as sushi to celebrity diners"

and

"Mitsubishi, who are the biggest traders in bluefin"

Both link's on Green Peace's Web pages below are redirected to my Weblog: Wil's Domain Weblog.

Don't take my word, dear. Check the proof for yourself:

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/blog/oceans/turkey-gobbles-tuna-20090511


Now that I have proven my case, I must post the following statement:

Because of your careless and disregard to reading LibroVox "Terms of Service," you give me no other civic choice...

I have suddenly opted to keep the recording on my site. No, I am not taking caving in to your extortion here at LibroVox!

How dare you contribute something to LibroVox and later take back what you have already released to the "Public Domain!"

How dare you libel me!

Regarding the "money back guarantee," you will be hard-pressed to find the majority of others to be not only as transparent as me (easy to contact).

You would also be hard-pressed to get your "MONEY BACK" from the most of the people selling the recording online.

Explain to everyone here at LibroVox what is shady about my willing to return anyone's money if he or she requested a refund?

Explain what my next action should be, "Moira Fogarty?"

Now, I must go feed my animal shelter-rescued Burmese kittens, Milo and Sasha. Milo is "crying" for some milk. Because I can see that this is leading to nowhere, I will end my reply now.

In closing,

It is unfortunate that you opted to libel me in LibroVox's forum. Also, it unfortunate that you have not afforded me the opportunity to accommodate your "Removal Request," despite the fact LibroVox' "Terms of service clearly states:

I shall return within 24 hours of my posting this reply to read your public apology. As you making an informed your "mea culpa" decision, I may seek legal advice regarding the libel issue here at LibroVox. Moira Fogarty, I am disappointed in you. You should have known better.

Regarding the recordings, I have changed my mind. I have decided to resume promoting the Sun Tzu: The Art of War on my sites; however, I will continue giving you proper attribution as "the narrator."

Take very good care of yourself, Moira. I mean that with sincerely in my heart. Please be good to yourself. There is no malice in my heart. Animosity is not flowing trough my veins. Hatred in not my master.

Sadly, you have exhibited total disregard to LibroVox's "Terms of Service." Moreover, you opted to post false and malicious statements on this site each of which is injurious to me as a person.

I am appalled to witness such tragedy here at LibroVox. What a disgraceful blow to humanity. you are a very talented and resourceful woman. I would have been honored to blog about the many issues in which you are interested.

Green Peace recognized my humble blogging efforts about the overfishing of bluefin tuna and the shady sushi industry.

My fellow members of We Love Our Pets recognized my humble efforts.

Many other wonderful and smart people have also recognize the manu unpaid hours I contribute to humanity.

What happened, Moira?

I would love to give you FREE and and maximum exposure on Wil's Domain.

I would love to promote your works "Roughing It in the Bush" and "Emma" by Jane Austen; however, you have revealed your "dark and sinister side," Moira.

Please be good to yourself. I do not harbor hostility or ill feelings towards you.

What a shame! What a waste!

Take care.

Wil Ford, U.S.M.C.

P.S. Ignorance and hate solves nothing. Love solves everything.

P.S.S. I hope others learn from your blatant disregard to LibroVox "Terms of Service."

P.S.S.S. If you elect not to post a public apology to "make me whole as a person," I shall prevail regarding the social injustice you have inflicted upon the LibroVox community.

P.S.S.S.S. Moira, I am expecting to view your immediate apology posted here on LiBroVox's Web site. I am not the only one here affected by your unfortunate smear campaign. Explain why should anyone trust contributors like you? Explain why? Please do humanity the favor of doing the "smart" and "civil" thing: apologize. Please say you were just kidding. I still can't believe you are smearing me over recordings you have consented to release under the "Public Domain." Good grief!

P.S.S.S.S.S. Unlike BellonaTimes, I don't get involved in a serious issue until I have heard "both sides" of an issue. Inflicting bodily harm on innocent is criminal. What some deemed as a joke, others take such foolish statements very seriously... including this United States Marine! BellonaTimes, be careful what you post. You may have posted it as a joke but I srongly urge you to read Librovix's Terms of Service. Hearsay is folly. Take care, everyone. I must GO now because Sasha is now crying like her brother Milo. Peace!

[Steampunk]

Just in case anyone is considering posting further on this issue, I remind all that rule #1 here is "Be Nice:"

http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Forum_Policies

Rule #0 is "Have Fun."

Lively, civil discussion is welcome. Any un-niceness or un-funness is really best taken elsewhere.



Jim

[Jc]

Moira,

I am a rational, fair and understanding person. Moreover, most of all, I am very concerned about your sadness and frustration. Really, I am. I wouldn't be replying to your complaint on LibroVox if I weren't.

Hi Wil

First I would like to thank you for taking the time to post your side of the story.

I understand your frustration regarding this issue. It is very frustrating to find out that people have been saying things without our knowledge.

Please allow me to clarify some of the issues. Also, please note that I am not speaking on behalf of LibriVox, or the other LibriVox admins.

The process of dedicating works to the Public Domain is in a legal gray area. Thus, many people might have misconceptions regarding the kind of rights that they are entitled to, and the rights they are surrendering. When submitting works to LibriVox, many readers don't imagine all the consequences involved, consequences which may be very unsettling, as they are so much against what we have been taught to believe about concepts such as "property", "rights", and "things I deserve". Many readers still feel very attached to their recordings, and many also believe in the ideal of free-as-in-beer, which explains why they feel very uneasy when they realize that someone else is making a profit out of their volunteering efforts.

Thus, every once in a while, a reader will point out some of these for-profit initiatives, and will feel that they are being exploited. I am sure that you, as a reasonable person, will understand that such feelings are very instinctive.

In most cases, there will be no intervention, as the people are well within their right.

However, dedicating works to the public domain being still in a legal gray area, many readers are also very cautious, because it is very difficult to determine what rights they have, and what rights they have surrendered. Moreover, the fact that our contributors are from different legal jurisdictions further complicates the matter.

This is why readers will often post on the forum, to seek further guidance regarding what kind of actions they can take, and I believe it is the case here. When the issue is simply people selling the recordings, we explain to the readers that dedicating to the public domain means that anyone anywhere can make money by selling the audiobooks.

In your particular case, however, Moira was worried to have her name associated with your project. This is a valid issue. Please let me explain:

By using her work in association with your organization, there might be an implication that she is involved with the organization, or supports the organization, or accepts to be linked to this organization. To use a more extreme example, if you saw her work offered on a website promoting neo-nazi ideas, it might not be unreasonable for you to think that she herself was involved with the neo-nazi movement. The same idea applies, whether it is neo-nazi propaganda, or a website to save cute kittens.

And here, Wil, is the problem that all of us face, when we dedicate a work to the public domain. If the recordings are free for everyone to use, have we agreed to have our names used too? I think the reasonable answer here should be: I don't think so.

This was what Moira was worried about, and quite legitimately so. She was asking for advice on what to do next, on what she _could_ do next.

No doubt we would have suggested that she contacts you.

I am truly sorry that the conversation slipped into what you call libel.
Such a reaction is very un-librivoxy.

I hope that you can understand.

[Caliban]

I don't know if anyone remembers me or remembers the fact that as an eBay seller I was one of the first to notice that our "Stuff" was being sold on eBay. At first I was livid and started campaigning to enforce some law or pull some string to get the product removed from the market despite the fact the CD's were beautifully presented and I was given full credit for my reading by the seller.

Wiser and saner heads prevailed! they pointed out the work was indeed placed into the public domain and this was a natural consequence of a fairly good reading (even if I say so myself).

What does bug me unto near apoplexy is the fact that after a year 3 vendors selling both my solo projects haven't sold a single copy! What gives here! Gesine's stuff and several others are selling hand over fist and my stuff isn't moving at all? I regard this as a base insult and demand the seller's get a move on here. It makes me look bad.

Thank You Very Much!

Cal

[WeLoveOurPets]

Jc,

I would like to thank everyone here at LibroVox, including Moira, for affording me the opportunity to resolve this matter.

As long as everyone here at LibroVox has read "my side of the story," I am grateful.

Take care.

[WeLoveOurPets]

Caliban,

I truly understand your frustration, too.

Thank you very much for making me laugh. I guess we all have experienced enough frustrations for one day here at LibroVox.

Take care.

[WeLoveOurPets]

Jc,

I have just "erased" the recordings. Also, any reference to Moira has been removed. I too value my good name.

Now, would you kindly ask her to remove my name "Wil Ford" off her "scumbag" list as well as my name in her comments. Fair enough?

Also, please remove... http://e-store.wilsdomain.com/the-art-of-war-by-sun-tzu/

Lastly, would you please kindly ask BellonaTimes to delete the statement about inflecting bodily harm on a "U.S.Marine?" (Be nice, BellonaTimes.)

Once again, thank you everyone (especially you, Caliban, for the comic relief).

Take care.