Covermakers Chat Thread

Non-reading activities need your help too!
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annise
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Post by annise » November 14th, 2018, 2:53 am

I did say it was complicated, I still feel it would be safe to use it but there are other images on the wiki page which are definitely PD, because they were printed in a 1918 book

Anne

amitsharma
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Post by amitsharma » November 14th, 2018, 3:11 am

Thank you both Anne and Ava. :clap:

We just got done with one festive season in India and another is on its way so there's plenty of good cheer to go around. I'll just take another photo which more PD than this one. HG Wells looks good in this one, hence I was trying for it.

No problem, let the London Gallery make whatever money they can off of it.

Thank you both for the research and efforts. It's heartwarming to see such concern and passion for pure volunteering here at LV. Should have joined a lot sooner. :)

Amit
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Post by msfry » November 16th, 2018, 12:15 pm

Anne, Bart, et al.

I have to admit, it feels really good when a BC or soloist thanks me for doing their cover. Yet in 170 covers made by me so far since 2014, I've only received thanks 5 times, and that from only 3 people (less than 2%). I like to think this is simply because we haven't suggested it nor shown the way, not because my covers are awful or that most people don't care about covers. I have been thinking about how we might improve this percentage. Two ways would be to add some text like the following to the bottom of the first post on this forum (EDIT: The Volunteer CD Covers forum, as this post has been moved since first posting over there), and to add a link somewhere on the Wiki, sort of like the Thank A Reader page. I'd like to hear what ya'll think, and welcome anyone else to join in.

***********************
How To Thank A Cover Maker

Our cover makers add color and pazazz to all our audio books. If you (BC or soloist) like what they've done for your project, feel free to thank them. In fact, anyone can give feedback on a cover they like.
You can do this by
  • hitting "Post Reply" to this forum for all subscribers to see,
  • or by Private Message.


How to send a Private Message:
There are several ways:
  • Click on the PM icon under the username in any post.
  • Go to your User Control Panel/Private Messages/Compose message. Paste the username of the member in the Add Recipients box, or use the Find A Member feature.
  • If all you know is the full name, paste that into the
    Search box on the LV home page. This takes you to the Reader Page, which displays the username. Use that to send a PM.
  • You could also go to Completed Projects, and add a thank you to the actual project thread. It's a nice way to round out a project, but since the cover maker is not likely subscribed to that thread, they probably won't get it.
Our Thank A Reader page has similar instructions for how to contact any LV member.
https://wiki.librivox.org/index.php?title=Thanking_A_Reader
Last edited by msfry on November 16th, 2018, 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Michele Fry, CC
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Foon
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Post by Foon » November 16th, 2018, 1:24 pm

Michele--
I think you have a good point! There isn't really a good way to thank the cover creator. And finding out who did the cover for your book isn't very straightforward.
(I did once leave a thank you for you, Michele, in the covermakers chat thread; don't know if you saw it, so that might make 6 ;) )

If changes are going to be implemented here, I think a nice touch would be to add some easy function to find out who created the cover for your book. As I don't make covers, I tend to forget about their existence, and I check my book a few weeks later and see that a beautiful cover has magically appeared. As far as I'm aware, the only way to figure out who made it, is then digging through pages of the covers thread, and hoping I spot it.

One suggestion I have for this is inviting covermakers to post in the project thread when they have made their cover (in addition to posting in the cover thread). That will let the people in the project know that 1) the cover is there so they can take a look, and 2) who to thank.
Foon - Real life is getting in the way of LV, will be slow until all is back on track, please bear with me!


Readers needed:
Dramatic Reading: The Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Folklore/legends: Arabian Nights Vol. 11
Play: Zeus the Tragedian

annise
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Post by annise » November 16th, 2018, 2:42 pm

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, I'm just going to move these to the chat thread so I don't start losing cover posts and preclaims if there is a rush of answers
Foon - not all covers are posted in this thread - I don't post mine because I am doing the linking myself and other MCs do the same
All the covermakers have their name on the pdf which you can see by clicking on the download CD inset link on the LV page for example https://ia800104.us.archive.org/17/items/tildajanesorphans_1801_librivox/tilda_jane_orphans_1801.pdf . Of course, this doesn't help much if you don't know David's forum name :D

I do get PMs sometimes about covers, if they conform to LV policy (be nice) I pass them on, if they don't I don't
Anne

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Post by Foon » November 16th, 2018, 5:06 pm

Thanks Anne, I didn't know you could see it there. I'll look at that from now on (even though, as you said, I might not know their forum name). And I don't know how much will change (as I am not a covermaker, I don't feel like I really belong in this conversation); but, anyone who sees this, please feel invited to post in the project thread if you ever make a cover for one of my projects. I will see, and will thank you!
Foon - Real life is getting in the way of LV, will be slow until all is back on track, please bear with me!


Readers needed:
Dramatic Reading: The Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Folklore/legends: Arabian Nights Vol. 11
Play: Zeus the Tragedian

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Post by Availle » November 16th, 2018, 5:32 pm

170 covers is impressive Michele, and 6 thanks makes about 3%. You're doing great! :clap:

You made me curious:
I have made about 500 covers since 2009, got thanked 5 times - 1%. Maybe I should stop making covers for my own solos or BC projects, to get that percentage up a little. :lol:
I have also read about 1500 sections in about 500 projects since 2009 - got thanked 40 times, that's 2.6% and 8% respectively. If I remove the 15 thanks I got as part of a large ensemble cast where I played the third dwarf from the left and people wouldn't even know it was me, we're down to 1.6% and 5% respectively.

I don't really care since I'm doing this for me myself and I. :D
People's motivations to do things are different though, I do understand that.

As you know, I make my own covers for all my BC and solo projects. If I did not and you were posting in one of my completed solos with a "look, I just made a cover for you" I would find that petty and offensive.
Why? Because you are expecting an immediate "thanks" for something that took you, don't know, an hour?, whereas, after weeks and sometimes months of effort, I - as most of our readers - will never hear a single word of gratitude from the hundreds of listeners they made happy with their recordings.
But as I said, I make my own covers. :D
Cheers,
Ava.

--
AvailleAudio.com

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Post by msfry » November 16th, 2018, 6:22 pm

Foon wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 1:24 pm
Michele--
I think you have a good point! There isn't really a good way to thank the cover creator. And finding out who did the cover for your book isn't very straightforward.
(I did once leave a thank you for you, Michele, in the covermakers chat thread; don't know if you saw it, so that might make 6 ;) )

If changes are going to be implemented here, I think a nice touch would be to add some easy function to find out who created the cover for your book. As I don't make covers, I tend to forget about their existence, and I check my book a few weeks later and see that a beautiful cover has magically appeared. As far as I'm aware, the only way to figure out who made it, is then digging through pages of the covers thread, and hoping I spot it.

One suggestion I have for this is inviting covermakers to post in the project thread when they have made their cover (in addition to posting in the cover thread). That will let the people in the project know that 1) the cover is there so they can take a look, and 2) who to thank.
No, I didn't see your comment, but I did just look it up . . . laboriously. Thank you. I liked that cover, and that book. I don't think this is a reliable platform for sending out thank you notes.

The Cover Designer is not named on the main LV catalog page, nor on archive.org. But, on each completed LV project, there are two links under the cover art. The bottom one links to a CD Case cover plate, where the cover designer usually identifies him/herself, by username or Real Name. No need to dig through the Covers thread to find this info. I think it's a splendid idea for any BC to end their project by thanking all who participated, including the Cover designer. Generosity of spirit is always appreciated.
Michele Fry, CC
My Projects
"If we admit a First Cause, the mind still craves to know whence it came and how it arose." ~Albert Einstein

msfry
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Post by msfry » November 16th, 2018, 6:36 pm

Availle wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 5:32 pm
170 covers is impressive Michele, and 6 thanks makes about 3%. You're doing great! :clap:

You made me curious:
I have made about 500 covers since 2009, got thanked 5 times - 1%. Maybe I should stop making covers for my own solos or BC projects, to get that percentage up a little. :lol:
I have also read about 1500 sections in about 500 projects since 2009 - got thanked 40 times, that's 2.6% and 8% respectively. If I remove the 15 thanks I got as part of a large ensemble cast where I played the third dwarf from the left and people wouldn't even know it was me, we're down to 1.6% and 5% respectively.

I don't really care since I'm doing this for me myself and I. :D
People's motivations to do things are different though, I do understand that.

As you know, I make my own covers for all my BC and solo projects. If I did not and you were posting in one of my completed solos with a "look, I just made a cover for you" I would find that petty and offensive.
Why? Because you are expecting an immediate "thanks" for something that took you, don't know, an hour?, whereas, after weeks and sometimes months of effort, I - as most of our readers - will never hear a single word of gratitude from the hundreds of listeners they made happy with their recordings.
But as I said, I make my own covers. :D
I usually look at each cover someone posts in the CD Covers thread. I thrill at the creativity, marvel at the generosity, and enjoy the comradery. The covers are like the gift-wrapping on a package, makes a little celebration of each completed project, and mine are an appreciative little "thank you" to BC, soloist, and readers. I enjoy being part of the team, however small my part is, and I strive to please the participants. Alas, I almost never know if I do. As to time invested, an hour is nothing. I often research book and author and sometimes listen to the whole book before I can decide on the optimum cover art. Delightfully, this leads me to artists, history, material and readers I would not discover otherwise, so it works well for me. It's all part of me wallowing in my favorite genres -- art, design and literature.

I would love to see more of your covers. I only remember Hind Swaraj -- an outstanding cover! I shall have to turn my looking glass upon your art when I get a moment. :D
Michele Fry, CC
My Projects
"If we admit a First Cause, the mind still craves to know whence it came and how it arose." ~Albert Einstein

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Post by annise » November 17th, 2018, 2:28 am

I'm hoping other people join in the discussion, I'll read them with interest

Anne

amitsharma
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Post by amitsharma » November 17th, 2018, 7:13 am

I wasn't planning on posting a comment here because I only have a handful of covers to my name and for whatever it's worth, I does not matter to me in the least if anyone thanks me or even acknowledges my cover in any way. I'm doing this simply to please myself. And I never do it because of the reader or the author or even the book.

My job is simple. I am trying to woo the listener into downloading the book I made the cover for instead of thousands of others vying for his/her attention.

I understand it takes months of hard work to record a book. Most readers pour everything they have into making it happen. And yet its a thankless job for most of them too. I know it's not fair but unfortunately that's the world we live in. A typical analogy that comes to my mind is of construction. People spend years doing back-breaking work to plan, design, and finally, construct a building. Come time to showcase it to the world, one actor/politician/rock-star comes along for 10 minutes and cuts a ribbon. Smile, smile, smile and flash, flash, flash and its on the front page of tomorrow's paper. People suddenly see it for the first time. It would never get there without that 10 minute highlight.

I am not saying that cover designers are the rock-stars, I am saying that the covers we make ARE. Many people that search for an audiobook online do not know what they are specifically looking for, especially the PD kind which is often enough out of the mainstream that they likely may not even recognize the author or the book. The FREE part is what often gets them to the catalog but there are hundreds of books on that page. And not matter how hard a reader has worked to create that audiobook, the casual browser would never know it. Not unless he or she actually downloads the book and listens to it out of the thousands screaming to grab his/her attention. And like it or not, it's likely the cover which will do the screaming, not the book.

I do not want gratitude for making it. If a casual browser clicks on a link simply because they like my cover, my job is done and I am grateful to them for it. That's all and that's everything.

I am really sorry if I offended anyone with this rambling. It was not my intent. :)

Amit
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"You can call me crazy, but you're just jealous that the voices don't talk to you."

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Post by msfry » November 17th, 2018, 8:23 am

amitsharma wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 7:13 am
I wasn't planning on posting a comment here because I only have a handful of covers to my name and for whatever it's worth, I does not matter to me in the least if anyone thanks me or even acknowledges my cover in any way. I'm doing this simply to please myself. I am really sorry if I offended anyone with this rambling. It was not my intent. :)

Amit
I come from the deep South of Louisiana. In our culture, people of leisure (like my Mother) send out thank you notes for the thank you notes they receive! If someone gives you a gift, you feel the urge to give one back. :lol:

I think that's ridiculous, but still it feels good and costs almost nothing for me to say thanks. But if the receiver finds it offensive or a waste of time or think's I'm seeking some kind of extraordinary credit, putting myself in the limelight, then the exchange is spoilt. Fortunately, this does not represent most people of my acquaintance, who happily do things to please other people. Maybe it's just a cultural thing.
Michele Fry, CC
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schrm
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Post by schrm » November 17th, 2018, 8:39 am

as a first thought, what is void for amit and the wonderful covers (my opinion), is void for me, also.
the handful of covers i made, are no big deal.
that said, this topic seems to be evident and i think of it as...
im thinking about that since i started with librivoxing.
annise wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 2:42 pm
I do get PMs sometimes about covers, if they conform to LV policy (be nice) I pass them on, if they don't I don't
Anne
that is where i see the problem, to be honest.
i once made a cover and seemed to be dissatisfying the bc. i didnt want that...
the pm was totally in line with lv policies, btw, and was just sort of ambivalent.
msfry wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 6:36 pm
I usually look at each cover someone posts in the CD Covers thread. I thrill at the creativity, marvel at the generosity, and enjoy the comradery. The covers are like the gift-wrapping on a package, makes a little celebration of each completed project, and mine are an appreciative little "thank you" to BC, soloist, and readers. I enjoy being part of the team, however small my part is, and I strive to please the participants. Alas, I almost never know if I do.
that is the spirit i totally agree with.
and some artists say, that you invest some thoughts and time and parts of your personality even..
it is the eyecatcher i try to create, to catch the interests of listeners, to appreciate the hard work of the readers.
and investing several hours or days into a cover is possible (most of the times, i need some hours to research, choose the pictures, and so on, too) - but "results" and "feelings" about the cover can be ambivalent, or negative, too.
and what i realized: most books i listened to i didn't download the cover to print it. i opened them out of interest, because they are inspiring, giving ideas being an ocassionally covermaker myself...
and looking at nice fotos and pictures is a hobby of me, since i tried out google plus in the beginnings of it (and realizing, that many professional artists all around the world posted their work there...). so i do, also, watch the work of others, which i find astonishing, inspiring, motivating.

and then, you wrote it yourself: you strive to please the participants.
but, we dont speak about wishes about covers first - we make them?
do we need a platform like librivox for covermakers, asking for wishes, basical standards to fullfill for this bc or soloist, and so on?
would be lots of work, but respectful for all sides..
dont get me wrong, i dont suggest to make this.
every bc and soloist can actually contact a covermaker since the first post in the launchpad...
but i do think, we should stay with the covermakers work where it is and keep the thinking in the lines of: that is some advertising gift-wrapping and all is about the wonderful work of our readers.

that said, i want to throw in a comment of a german reader in some totally other context (we were speaking about the non-librivox librivox app, where someone left a positive comment which i forwarded).
the argument was along the lines of: we, in german librivox, dont receive as many thanks, or feedback in general, as in english speaking countries, because it is not that enforced in our culture. so, therefore, we both are looking up the stats of finished projects, reading comments in the app...
i think, cultural differences is a big point in that approach and therefore...
please see the first sentences of my post, which are even more void, again.

so, never change a running system or enforce the communication and maybe get better results for all participants, that are the two points which i wanted to throw in.
Last edited by schrm on November 17th, 2018, 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

/reader/12275


bc gruppe: sammlung prosa
duo: rousseau
en: bc manners and rules

sing "The First Nowell" viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75979

amitsharma
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Post by amitsharma » November 17th, 2018, 10:50 am

msfry wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 8:23 am
I come from the deep South of Louisiana. In our culture, people of leisure (like my Mother) send out thank you notes for the thank you notes they receive! If someone gives you a gift, you feel the urge to give one back. :lol:

I think that's ridiculous, but still it feels good and costs almost nothing for me to say thanks. But if the receiver finds it offensive or a waste of time or think's I'm seeking some kind of extraordinary credit, putting myself in the limelight, then the exchange is spoilt. Fortunately, this does not represent most people of my acquaintance, who happily do things to please other people. Maybe it's just a cultural thing.
Hi Michele,

I guess the culture of deep south of Louisiana exists even here on the other side of the world. The thank yous for the thank yous. And I agree with you completely in spirit of that.

IMHO, there's one point here though. All those thank-you's are for people that you actually know in real world. You are acknowledging a personal relationship and not necessarily reciprocating the gesture. I like to believe that you would not have any issues even if you had to initiate the gift giving with a person personally known to you. Unfortunately, here in the digital world we are anonymous on a human interaction level. This difference is akin to the difference in closeness of, say, a family member and that of a co-worker in a branch office that you've never met. Of course we know we are all human beings and exist in real life but I think gratitude feels more real, for both parties, if it's a person we already cherish.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not in the least critical of your wishes. And again, I apologize if in any way my words upset you. I want to specifically clarify that I do not find it at all "offensive or a waste of time" if the BC/MC/Reader thanks me or appreciate my work (I wonder why would anyone find that offensive?), I just don't EXPECT it because it is not a requisite for my designing the cover.

And not walking under a ladder or throwing salt over one's shoulder are cultural things; values and appreciation are, in my opinion, universally human things.

Just my two cents Ma'am.

Amit
Amit Sharma, CC

"You can call me crazy, but you're just jealous that the voices don't talk to you."

schrm
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Post by schrm » November 17th, 2018, 11:01 am

amitsharma wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 10:50 am

And not walking under a ladder or throwing salt over one's shoulder are cultural things; values and appreciation are, in my opinion, universally human things.

Just my two cents Ma'am.

Amit
but the expression of these two are very different..
also approaches on best habits, best answers, and so on..
while i am wondering about how often some people mention (in their opinion) low quality records on lv, eg, i assume that most listeners appreciate the work without thanking.
i really do that, and therefore i watch the download numbers on archive or some comments in the app...because i dont expect to get many thank yous..

/reader/12275


bc gruppe: sammlung prosa
duo: rousseau
en: bc manners and rules

sing "The First Nowell" viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75979

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