COMPLETE The Arte or Crafte of Rhethoryke, by Leonard Cox-mas

[plaidsicle]

here is section 7:
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_07_cox_128kb.mp3
it's a long one! 42:39

I caught a few things while editing that I know are probably wrong...
also, I have section 8 recorded but I'm out of all the patience required to edit it today. perhaps tomorrow...

[JorWat]

here is section 7:
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_07_cox_128kb.mp3
it's a long one! 42:39

I caught a few things while editing that I know are probably wrong...
also, I have section 8 recorded but I'm out of all the patience required to edit it today. perhaps tomorrow...

Here are your notes:

0:20-0:25: This gap should be shortened
0:26-0:30: This gap should be shortened
5:17-5:19: This gap should be shortened
6:38: 'proheme' in 'A man may also fetche his proheme' is an old spelling of 'proem', pronounced 'PROH-em'
7:14: 'Or he maye begyn at the nature of the tyme that it is then' should be 'Or he maye begyn at the nature of the tyme that is then'
8:08: 'prohemes' again in 'One may besyde these vse other maner of prohemes'
8:51: 'as he had founde in all other manners' should be 'as he had founde in all other maters'
10:27: 'to make an oracion to the prayse of this lofel' should be 'to make an oracion to the prayse of this losel ('LOH-zuhl', worthless person)'
11:29: 'sayned fables of poetes' should be 'fayned fables of poetes'. 'fained' means 'Made glad. Hence welcomed (a person); also, congratulated (const. of)'
11:32: 'and sing tales of lyght fokes' should be 'and fleyng [flying] tales of lyght fokes'. From the OED: "flying (adj), 5.a. Of a tale, rumour, etc.: Circulating without definite authority."
12:50 (not required): 'somdele' in 'and somdele to alleuiate your myndes' is an old spelling of 'somedeal', pronounced 'SUM-deel'
13:27: 'not to fer set nor to longe' should be 'not to fer fet [far-fet] nor to longe'. 'far-fet' is an obsolete form of 'far-fetched'
17:23: 'The tother wanne moche bruyt' should be read as 'The tother won much bruit'. 'Bruit' is pronounced like 'brute', and means "fame, renown; reputation"
18:04 (not required): 'busynes' in 'to care lesse for his owne busynes than theyrs' is probably better read as 'business' (i.e. BIZ-nis) rather than 'busyness' (i.e. BIZ-ee-nis).
18:38: 'richesse' of 'with the riche man in richesse' is pronounced 'ri-SHES'
20:11: 'after that he hath spoken to his parentele' should be 'after that he hath spoken of his parentele'. Also, 'parentele' is pronounced 'par-un-TEEL' (it means "derivation or descent from parents; lineage, birth, ancestry, parentage")
20:13: This gap should probably be shorter
20:29: 'that in hym that shulde be had capitayne' should be 'that in hym that shulde be a hed [head] capitayne'
23:24: 'Nowe it chaunced that while this summe was in payage' should be 'Nowe it chaunced that while this summe was in payenge [paying]'
25:58: I think 'parentel' in 'Fyrst in declarynge his parentel' is an alternate spelling of 'parantele', previously mentioned.
26:03: 'whiche he was' should be 'whiche was'
26:06: 'the moste chieftain kynge' should be 'the moste chrysten kynge'. Technically 'christen' is different word to 'Christian', but I think using 'Christian' is fine here, as they mean the same thing.
26:40: I believe 'Swaueland' should be read as 'Swaveland'. The region is 'Swabia' which was known as 'Swǣfaland' in Old English (and presumably 'Swaveland' in Middle English). Not sure of pronunciation. I'd go with 'SWAH-vuh-land'
29:14 (not required): 'puyssaunce' in 'he cam with all his puyssaunce' should be pronounced 'PYOO-uh-suhns'
29:43: 'shewed them that he was proposed' should be 'shewed them that he was purposed'
30:20: 'leste his demaunde wolde haue betrayed hym' should be 'leste his demaunde wolde haue bewrayed hym'. 'bewray' does basically mean 'betray', but I think the 'reveal or expose' meaning is meant here
30:23: 'for as a language' should be 'for as for language'
31:00: 'whiche at that tyme that was there prepared' should be 'whiche at that tyme was there prepared'
31:20: The '.iii. C.' of 'he fayned that .iii. C. of the nobleft yonge men of Rome' is a very weird way of writing 300. From Wikipedia: "He also declared that he was the first of three hundred Roman youths to volunteer for the task of assassinating Porsena at the risk of losing their own lives"
31:47: 'Sceuola' should be read as 'Scevola' (which seems to be pronounced 'SKY-vo-luh'). Again, from Wikipedia: "thereby earning for himself and his descendants the cognomen Scaevola, meaning "left-handed""
32:11: 'Sceuola' again in 'the remembraunce of Sceuolas name'
33:25: 'of now brought to me' should be 'of newe [new] brought to me'
34:46: 'proheme' again in 'For after the proheme of the oracion'
35:22: 'The honesty of the cause is set from the nature of the thynge' should be 'The honesty of the cause is fet from the nature of the thynge'. As before, 'fet' is an old form of 'fetch'
35:30: 'fet' again in 'and maye also be fet out of the phylosophers bokes'
36:03: 'Sceuola' again in 'As if one wolde praise Sceuolaes acte'
36:30 (not required): 'puyssaunt' in 'to remoue so stronge and puyssaunt an enemy' should be pronounced 'PYOO-uh-suhnt'
37:18: This gap should probably be shorter
38:30: This gap should probably be shorter
39:42: 'And to this proposion' should be 'And this proposion'
40:10 (not required): 'haue bene truely described' should be 'haue bene truely descryued [descrived]', though 'descrive' means the same as 'describe'
40:16 (not requires): 'commodiouse' of 'and shewe what a commodiouse thynge it is' should be pronounced 'kuh-MOH-dee-us'
40:35: This gap should probably be shorter
42:28: This gap should probably be shorter

Bonus section!

You might be wondering if 'fayctes' of 'that by his noble and hardy fayctes his valyantnes myght be the more knowen & spred abrod' (18:17) is 'facts', as you read it. It is, but here it's using the original meaning of 'fact', "an action, a deed, a course of conduct"

Man, this has to be the most research I've ever had to do for a proof listen...

[plaidsicle]

you are the best. geez this section is long and troublesome... but we will soldier on with it. thank you so much for being the best best best PLer ever (I even gave you a shout out on the PL-themed podcast Tricia's putting together soon ).

while I work on all these edits for 7, here is 8: https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_08_cox_128kb.mp3
12:29

[JorWat]

you are the best. geez this section is long and troublesome... but we will soldier on with it. thank you so much for being the best best best PLer ever (I even gave you a shout out on the PL-themed podcast Tricia's putting together soon ).

while I work on all these edits for 7, here is 8: https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_08_cox_128kb.mp3
12:29

I'll get on with that, and thanks for the shout out in the podcast!

[JorWat]

you are the best. geez this section is long and troublesome... but we will soldier on with it. thank you so much for being the best best best PLer ever (I even gave you a shout out on the PL-themed podcast Tricia's putting together soon ).

while I work on all these edits for 7, here is 8: https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_08_cox_128kb.mp3
12:29

Not as bad as the last one...

2:35: This silence is a bit too long
3:45: 'combred' in 'here are we nowe combred with all' is an old spelling of 'cumbered'
4:04: 'Linius' should be 'Livius'
4:17: While 'goddes' in 'The solempne makynge of prayers vnto the goddes' is an old spelling of 'goddess', I think it's 'gods' in this case, like you read it at 4:29.
5:05: 'to brynge these definitions' should be 'to brynge these dissencyons [dissensions, 'dih-SEN-shuhnz']'
5:40: 'whiche warre is mounted' should be 'whiche warre is moued [moved]'
5:55: 'Livius' again
6:48: 'whan your father was Council' should be 'whan your father was Consull [Consul, 'KON-suhl']'
8:44: 'whiche must be set out of the places' should be 'whiche must be fet out of the places' (see previous section's notes)
10:39: 'we muste haue respect to profitability or improfitability' should be 'we muste haue respect to possibiliti or impossibilite [possibility or impossibility]'
10:50: 'must presuppose the profitability therof' should be 'must presuppose the possibilete therof'
11:16: 'And these argumentes be set' should be 'And these argumentes be fet'
12:13: 'And so dothe Ulysses conclude his oracyon in the eighth boke' should be 'And so dothe Ulysses conclude his oracyon in the .xiii. [thirteenth] boke'
12:19: This silence is a bit too long

[plaidsicle]

Jordan, thank you for your notes. I've made a start on edits but it's slow going. just checking in to prove that I haven't given up on this project. once I can get over these big edit sessions, there won't be too much further to go.

[plaidsicle]

alright, I survived all these section 7 edits! hopefully I haven't made it worse in any huge way.

https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_07_cox_128kb.mp3 42:14

I had one question about the note for 8:51: 'as he had founde in all other manners' should be 'as he had founde in all other maters' I already hear this as "matters" -- but did you mean it should be the long A, as in "mate"?

here are all the fixes I did make:

0:20-0:25: This gap should be shortened DONE
0:26-0:30: This gap should be shortened DONE
5:17-5:19: This gap should be shortened DONE
6:38: 'proheme' in 'A man may also fetche his proheme' is an old spelling of 'proem', pronounced 'PROH-em' DONE
7:14: 'Or he maye begyn at the nature of the tyme that it is then' should be 'Or he maye begyn at the nature of the tyme that is then' DONE
8:08: 'prohemes' again in 'One may besyde these vse other maner of prohemes' DONE
10:27: 'to make an oracion to the prayse of this lofel' should be 'to make an oracion to the prayse of this losel ('LOH-zuhl', worthless person)' DONE
11:29: 'sayned fables of poetes' should be 'fayned fables of poetes'. 'fained' means 'Made glad. Hence welcomed (a person); also, congratulated (const. of)' DONE
11:32: 'and sing tales of lyght fokes' should be 'and fleyng [flying] tales of lyght fokes'. From the OED: "flying (adj), 5.a. Of a tale, rumour, etc.: Circulating without definite authority." DONE
13:27: 'not to fer set nor to longe' should be 'not to fer fet [far-fet] nor to longe'. 'far-fet' is an obsolete form of 'far-fetched' DONE
17:23: 'The tother wanne moche bruyt' should be read as 'The tother won much bruit'. 'Bruit' is pronounced like 'brute', and means "fame, renown; reputation" DONE
18:04 (not required): 'busynes' in 'to care lesse for his owne busynes than theyrs' is probably better read as 'business' (i.e. BIZ-nis) rather than 'busyness' (i.e. BIZ-ee-nis). DONE
18:38: 'richesse' of 'with the riche man in richesse' is pronounced 'ri-SHES' DONE
20:11: 'after that he hath spoken to his parentele' should be 'after that he hath spoken of his parentele'. Also, 'parentele' is pronounced 'par-un-TEEL' (it means "derivation or descent from parents; lineage, birth, ancestry, parentage") DONE
20:13: This gap should probably be shorter DONE
20:29: 'that in hym that shulde be had capitayne' should be 'that in hym that shulde be a hed [head] capitayne' DONE
23:24: 'Nowe it chaunced that while this summe was in payage' should be 'Nowe it chaunced that while this summe was in payenge [paying]' DONE
25:58: I think 'parentel' in 'Fyrst in declarynge his parentel' is an alternate spelling of 'parantele', previously mentioned. DONE
26:03: 'whiche he was' should be 'whiche was' DONE
26:06: 'the moste chieftain kynge' should be 'the moste chrysten kynge'. Technically 'christen' is different word to 'Christian', but I think using 'Christian' is fine here, as they mean the same thing. DONE
26:40: I believe 'Swaueland' should be read as 'Swaveland'. The region is 'Swabia' which was known as 'Swǣfaland' in Old English (and presumably 'Swaveland' in Middle English). Not sure of pronunciation. I'd go with 'SWAH-vuh-land' DONE
29:14 (not required): 'puyssaunce' in 'he cam with all his puyssaunce' should be pronounced 'PYOO-uh-suhns' DONE
29:43: 'shewed them that he was proposed' should be 'shewed them that he was purposed' DONE
30:20: 'leste his demaunde wolde haue betrayed hym' should be 'leste his demaunde wolde haue bewrayed hym'. 'bewray' does basically mean 'betray', but I think the 'reveal or expose' meaning is meant here DONE
30:23: 'for as a language' should be 'for as for language' DONE
31:00: 'whiche at that tyme that was there prepared' should be 'whiche at that tyme was there prepared' DONE
31:20: The '.iii. C.' of 'he fayned that .iii. C. of the nobleft yonge men of Rome' is a very weird way of writing 300. From Wikipedia: "He also declared that he was the first of three hundred Roman youths to volunteer for the task of assassinating Porsena at the risk of losing their own lives"
DONE
31:47: 'Sceuola' should be read as 'Scevola' (which seems to be pronounced 'SKY-vo-luh'). Again, from Wikipedia: "thereby earning for himself and his descendants the cognomen Scaevola, meaning "left-handed"" DONE
32:11: 'Sceuola' again in 'the remembraunce of Sceuolas name' DONE
33:25: 'of now brought to me' should be 'of newe [new] brought to me' DONE
34:46: 'proheme' again in 'For after the proheme of the oracion' DONE
35:22: 'The honesty of the cause is set from the nature of the thynge' should be 'The honesty of the cause is fet from the nature of the thynge'. As before, 'fet' is an old form of 'fetch' DONE
35:30: 'fet' again in 'and maye also be fet out of the phylosophers bokes' DONE
36:03: 'Sceuola' again in 'As if one wolde praise Sceuolaes acte' DONE
36:30 (not required): 'puyssaunt' in 'to remoue so stronge and puyssaunt an enemy' should be pronounced 'PYOO-uh-suhnt' DONE
37:18: This gap should probably be shorter DONE
38:30: This gap should probably be shorter DONE
39:42: 'And to this proposion' should be 'And this proposion' DONE
40:16 (not requires): 'commodiouse' of 'and shewe what a commodiouse thynge it is' should be pronounced 'kuh-MOH-dee-us' DONE
40:35: This gap should probably be shorter DONE
42:28: This gap should probably be shorter DONE

thank you again for being most awesome!

[JorWat]

alright, I survived all these section 7 edits! hopefully I haven't made it worse in any huge way.

https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_07_cox_128kb.mp3 42:14

I had one question about the note for 8:51: 'as he had founde in all other manners' should be 'as he had founde in all other maters' I already hear this as "matters" -- but did you mean it should be the long A, as in "mate"?

here are all the fixes I did make:

[removed for brevity]

PL OK! Listening again, I think you did say 'matters', but in an American accent which to my British ears clearly sounded more like 'manners'. Compare the pronunciations of anakat (American) and Shannon15 (British) here to hear how different they sound.

[plaidsicle]

ah yes, the variation of accent is an explanation I didn't think of before. so many ways to say the same words!

thank you again. hopefully I'll get section 8 edited within a week or two...

[plaidsicle]

https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_08_cox_128kb.mp3
12:26

2:35: This silence is a bit too long FIXED
3:45: 'combred' in 'here are we nowe combred with all' is an old spelling of 'cumbered' DONE
4:04: 'Linius' should be 'Livius' DONE
4:17: While 'goddes' in 'The solempne makynge of prayers vnto the goddes' is an old spelling of 'goddess', I think it's 'gods' in this case, like you read it at 4:29. DONE
5:05: 'to brynge these definitions' should be 'to brynge these dissencyons [dissensions, 'dih-SEN-shuhnz']' DONE
5:40: 'whiche warre is mounted' should be 'whiche warre is moued [moved]' DONE (re-recorded almost the whole paragraph)
5:55: 'Livius' again DONE
6:48: 'whan your father was Council' should be 'whan your father was Consull [Consul, 'KON-suhl']' DONE
8:44: 'whiche must be set out of the places' should be 'whiche must be fet out of the places' (see previous section's notes) DONE
10:39: 'we muste haue respect to profitability or improfitability' should be 'we muste haue respect to possibiliti or impossibilite [possibility or impossibility]' DONE
10:50: 'must presuppose the profitability therof' should be 'must presuppose the possibilete therof' DONE
11:16: 'And these argumentes be set' should be 'And these argumentes be fet' DONE
12:13: 'And so dothe Ulysses conclude his oracyon in the eighth boke' should be 'And so dothe Ulysses conclude his oracyon in the .xiii. [thirteenth] boke' DONE
12:19: This silence is a bit too long DONE

[JorWat]

https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_08_cox_128kb.mp3
12:26

PL OK! Nearly there now...

[plaidsicle]

I'm thinking I can finish this up for the March clean-up efforts. 9 and 10 are recorded now... but they need bunches of editing. I will work on that and upload as soon as I can...

[plaidsicle]

section 9 is edited at last! I kept noticing an intermittent echoing-ish background noise, possibly from our heater or something. but hopefully it won't be as noticeable as I thought it was? I tried some noise reduction but I don't know if it helped.

https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_09_cox_128kb.mp3
41:15

[JorWat]

section 9 is edited at last! I kept noticing an intermittent echoing-ish background noise, possibly from our heater or something. but hopefully it won't be as noticeable as I thought it was? I tried some noise reduction but I don't know if it helped.

https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/rhethoryke_09_cox_128kb.mp3
41:15

My goodness, this took so much longer than I thought it would...

1:19: 'legitime' in 'The second legitime' is pronounced 'LEDGE-i-tim' (OED actually has this very book as an example of this word)
5:19: I believe 'mete' in 'Next is shewed the place where as Clodius mete Milo' is 'met', not 'meet', as the sentence is in the past tense.
6:44: 'seiunction' in 'This diuision is deuyded into seiunction and distribucion. Seiunction is whan we shewe wherin our aduersaries and we agre' is 'sejuction', pronounced 'si-JUNGK-shun' (This book is the earliest known usage!)
7:01: 'seiunction' again in 'myght on this maner haue vsed seiunction'
11:23: 'Almaynes' (or Almains) in 'To Flemmynges and Almaynes' is pronounced 'AL-mains' (it means German)
11:58: I believe (OED has no pronuncation listed) 'entwyte' in 'On this wyse dothe Phillis entwyte Demophon' is pronounced 'en-TWIT'
12:52: 'sayeth vnto his man called Sofia' should be 'sayeth vnto his man called Sosia'
13:17: 'fyers' in 'My softe handes are nat apte to fyers batayles' is 'fierce', not 'fires'
13:42: 'had certayne Musiciens and maydens' should be 'had in his company certayne Musiciens and maydens'
17:00: 'Sosia' again in 'And Sosia demaunded why he wolde do so'
17:55: 'Agayne that Milo oppressyd many of his serious purposes' 'Agayne that Milo oppressyd many of his furiouse purposes'
25:07: 'Nexte after that it behoueth hym to haue refuge on the merytes of his elders' should be 'Nexte after that it behoueth hym to haue refuge to the merytes of his elders'
26:59: 'And finally then by comon places to moue the iudges to mercy & pytie vpon hym.' should be 'And finally then by comon places to moue the iudge to mercy & pytie vpon hym.'
27:22: 'Remocion' or 'Remotion' in 'Remocion of the faute is whan we put it from vs and lay it to another.' is pronounced 'ri-MOH-shun' (it happened again...)
27:29: 'ambassade' in 'The Venecians haue commaunded certayne to go in ambassade to Englande' is pronounced AM-buh-sayd (like 'amber shade', but with an 's' rather than a 'sh') (déjà vu...)
28:11: 'Clitenestra' or Clytemnestra in 'whan he cam home was slayne of Egistus by the treason of Clitenestra his owne wyfe' is pronounced 'klye-tum-NES-truh' (Oh, and if you want to go for modern pronounciations, 'Egistus', or Aegisthus is pronounced 'ee-JIS-thus')
28:51: 'legitime' again in 'Of state legitime'
29:25: 'lese' in 'shulde lese theyr ryght' is 'lease', not 'leave'
29:46-29:52: Repetition of 'And as they were in the mayne see'.
30:59: 'Chirurgiens' in 'by helpe of Chirurgiens' is not an old spelling of 'surgeons', but 'chirurgeons', pronounced 'kye-RUR-junz' (though it does just mean surgeon...)
31:36: 'Than to retell the expoficion' should be 'Than to refell the expoficion'. 'refel' means 'To refute or disprove', but no pronuncation is given. It comes from the Latin 'refellere', so 'reh-FELL'?
32:12: 'conster' in 'and to conster theyr exposicion with oures' is apparently 'construe', though it seems this is pronounced 'CON-ster' in this case (From the OED: "At an early date the stress was put on the first syllable, and the final reduced to -stre, -ster: conster continued to be the pronunciation down to the 19th cent., even after it had disappeared as a written form.")
32:47: Stutter between 'shall' and 'wise' in 'shall in no wyse'
33:08: 'lesynge' in 'and whan al other for feare of lesynge themfelfe' is 'leasing'
35:44: 'entendeth to prouve the maker therof either an unfit man' should be 'entendeth to prouve the maker therof either an vniust [unjust] man'

Extra!

2:21: If you're curious about 'wode' in 'and shortly after in a wode nygh to the hoste', yes, it is 'wood', but not the tree related meaning. It means 'madness' here, and is etymologically completely unrelated to the other meaning.

[plaidsicle]

you're amazing, Jordan. I knew I was getting tired halfway through this, and I could hear all the deep & mushy confusion in every pause when I went back through to edit. I'll get the edits for section 10 (a much shorter section) and the fixes for this one done hopefully within the month!

I'm wondering if it'd be worth splitting up the two 40+ minutes sections... but I'm not sure how I'd split them. any advice from MC or PL is welcome...