COMPLETE The Little Minister, JM Barrie-mas

[sylviamb]

I'd rather you didn't "have a go" at editing the word "Rick" in Chapter 7. There is nothing wrong with the pronunciation. There is no missing "ck" sound, only the aspiration afterward. I'm not quite sure how your voice inserted into the sentence or replacing the sentence would be less of a sore thumb than my own voice.

Also in Chapter 9, the word you mention "goal" is not pronounced "jail" in Scots, Doric, or Welsh. "Jail" is a typical American English pronunciation.

The narrator (the Dominie) within the story has identified the languages and accents the characters speak as Scots and Doric. I have used an on-line pronunciation guide with audible pronunciation that has some 20+ languages to draw from as my source. It does not specifically have Scots or Doric, so I have decided to use Welsh as a close approximation. The Welsh pronunciation is "guhl", with an aspiration after the short "u" sound. My pronunciation has varied throughout all the chapters because I personally find this difficult to remember to pronounce properly, and so picking out this particular instance by itself is inconsistent.

And as a final comment, you are using an above standard of proof-listening when listing these items as errors or needing correction. Pronunciation is specifically a reader's choice and is not to be corrected in the "standard" level of proofing. You are using "word perfect" which is inappropriate according to the instructions in proof-listeners' FAQ.

I believe that I have a correct understanding of the rules regarding this -- just because the FAQ seems to be the penultimate source -- I have given a lot of thought to the options available in pronunciation, and I stand by my decisions.

Please don't take this as contentious, only standing up for my decisions on pronunciation and not agreeing to make corrections at a proofing level above standard.

Thank you for your detailed and obviously dedicated work. And also, thank you for the compliment.

Sylvia

[Elizabby]

No, I'm not using word perfect standard - I'm using the usual standard around here which is listener comprehension. The word "gaol" sounded odd to me, but if you've looked into it I'm prepared to let it stand. I'm happy to be educated and freely admit that I am not an accent expert.

Chapter 9 is now marked PL OK.

Just to clarify the issue with Chapter 7. It is my opinion that the name "Rick" doesn't sound clear to me (and since you already said you didn't know how to fix it yourself) my proposal was to EDIT it for you. (I am not going to record anything.)

I sometimes do this for relatively new readers who struggle with small edits. What I do is listen for another spot in the file where the needed sound occurs (terminal T and K sounds are relatively easy to find) and copy and paste it. If you don't want me to do this, then you can do this yourself. Alternatively, it may be possible to go into the file and amplify the terminal "K" sound which I currently cannot hear at all. The other possibility is to go back and re-record the whole sentence or paragraph - this is often easier and gives a smoother final result than single word edits.

I think names are difficult to infer from context, and if it were any other word I would probably let it go. It is clear from your response that you think I am being unreasonably picky - though I think 3 PL notes over 8 chapters is an extremely accurate read rate! But luckily we have an impartial third party to ask for an outside opinion!

MaryAnn, could you please take a listen to Chapter 7, just after 4:10 for the name of the sheriff and see if you can understand it? You don't need to check against the text, just a listen is what we need.

Let's get an official admin opinion and both agree to abide by her judgement, how about that?

[sylviamb]

What do you mean by "I'm using the usual standard around here which is listener comprehension"?

I don't believe I've seen that phrase, "listener comprehension" in any instruction on PL'g at the standard level. If you believe it's a custom, I believe it's inappropriate according to the written rubrics.

Here is the FAQ portion for what to listen for:

For what types of error should I be listening?
There are some standard things that need to be listened for in each section, with possible additions depending on the nature of the text. The first post of each proof-listening thread should include a list of the requirements; if it doesn't, please ask the BC or soloist. By far the most common level of PL required is 'standard PL':
-- Do the intro and disclaimer match the instructions in the first post of the project thread?
-- Are there any long silences or pauses that ought to be edited out? If so, note the time.
-- Are there any repeats, or serious stumbles that ought to be edited out? If so, note the words and the time.
-- Is there excessive background noise, a constant hiss or buzz that detracts from the reading?
-- Did you need to turn your volume up unusually high to listen to the recording? (Or did you find the recording too loud?)
-- Are the correct closing words used at the end of the recording, as per the first post of the project thread?
-- Are there about 5 seconds of silence at the end of the file?

NOTHING about listener comprehension.

Here is the FAQ portion about what NOT to listen for:

For what type of thing should I NOT be listening?
Text content, reading style, speed, pronunciation, or accents. The LibriVox community values a wide variety of reading styles; what one person finds difficult to hear, another person may really enjoy. The interpretation of the reader is not for our proof-listeners to judge. If you are uncomfortable listening to a particular voice, feel free to return the section to the pool for another proof-listener to claim. Please also see the LibriVox policy on feedback.[/b] If you are unsure about giving feedback on a specific section, contact a member of the LibriVox admin team privately first.

I did not at anytime say that I don't know how to fix it. I do. I tried it, and I didn't like it. I even found another occurrence of his name and tried it. I didn't like it.

You say you cannot hear the final K. I say I can hear the final K.

I do not agree to accept Maryann's judgment on whether the word "Rick" "sounds all right ". I agree to accept her judgment on whether this suggested correction is within the accepted level of "standard" PL'g.

Actually, I don't think you're being picky. I think you're good at your job and are just using a level of PL'g higher than required. And you're standing up for what you believe. So am I.

And as far as asking Maryann to listen to see if she can "understand" it, puh-leez, the whole book is full of words that are not understandable when pronounced with the proper accent.

Sylvia

[Elizabby]

It was my opinion that having the final consonant of a character's name be inaudible was a mistake which occurred in editing. Am I wrong? (I am prepared to be wrong, if that's the case!) Is this how you wanted to pronounce the character's name and plan to continue doing so? If so, please accept my apologies. If this is actually a style choice and conscious pronunciation decision, then you are quite correct - it is up to the reader to choose how to pronounce words/names.

However, from your earlier comment about being unable to edit it to make it sound smooth, I thought that you were expressing difficulty with the mechanics of editing, and were dissatisfied with the effect of editing the file (a common problem) and were wanting to achieve a smooth final result, and I was offering to help.

In my opinion this issue falls under the situation described here, which is a direct quote from the Wiki:

We try to catch things like long silences, repeated text, editing problems, volume problems, static, etc.

In my opinion this falls under "editing problem". I repeat my earlier comment that I think your accent authenticity is fantastic and that it makes the text easier to understand. I'm not picking on an element of style or interpretation (or rather, that was not my intention!)

I agree to accept her judgment on whether this suggested correction is within the accepted level of "standard" PL'g.

Great! We agree then. Over to MaryAnn.

EDIT: As an added vote of confidence in your reading, if you would like them, I am willing to offer to you Sections 1 and 45. I usually "top and tail" my own BC projects but you've done so much sterling work on this one if you would like the "pole positions" of entry and exit they can be yours. I have no other laurels to give!

[sylviamb]

Oakie dokie, with your explanation I concede the point that the problem with "Rick" comes under editing problems. I enjoyed the lively debate. I hope you don't mind.

I have replaced the full sentence and here's the re-upload.

Section 7 Time 11:32
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_07_barrie_128kb.mp3

Also - wow! - I accept your offer of "top and "tail". Thank you very much!

Maryann, thanks, but we'll cancel that request for a decision-maker. We're all fixed up now.

Sylvia

[Elizabby]

Excellent! Chapter 7 is now PL OK! (The sound quality is fine - it's a touch different from the original file but not so much as to disrupt listening.)

Also, Chapters 11, 12 and 13 are all PL OK! Thanks Sylvia and Nathan!

[sylviamb]

Section 1 Time 9:43
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_01_barrie_128kb.mp3

I have to tell you the story of this chapter. When I first made a claim in this project my claim started with chapter 2. I completely screwed it up, though, because I titled the audio chapter 2, but I mistakenly read all of chapter 1. What a stupe!

The thought crossed my mind that I would offer it to you, but that seemed rude and kinda greedy when I knew that many BCs automatically claim first and last. So I just left it and moved on to what I was supposed to be doing.

When you made your generous offer of allowing me to do first and last, I really had a big laugh, thinking, oh, my gosh, that audio file that I thought of as "practice" was actually going to come in handy and get used after all. What a deal, eh?

Sylvia

[sylviamb]

Section 30 Time 11:57
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_30_barrie_128kb.mp3

[Elizabby]

Chapters 14 and 15 are PL OK!

LOL! Chapters 1 and 30 are now in the MW!

[Elizabby]

Chapters 16-19 are PL OK. Nice work with the voices especially during their argument!

[Elizabby]

Chapters 1, 20 - 23 are all PL OK!

[sylviamb]

Here's a few more chapters:

Section 31 Time 15:04
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_31_barrie_128kb.mp3

Section 33 Time 9:57
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_33_barrie_128kb.mp3

Section 35 Time 23:07
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_35_barrie_128kb.mp3

In the MW Section 28 has "see PL notes", but I don't see any.

In the MW Section 45 shows that I submitted audio, but I haven't. The audio at the link there is actually Chapter 30.

May I claim Sections 36 37 38 & 39?

Thanks!

Sylvia

[Elizabby]

Sorry! MW updates and corrections in progress - I've been PLing on my phone but need my computer to post PL notes.

Ch 28, there is an edit which you probably meant to remove at 5:50. There's a little cough and then the line is repeated correctly, so it's just a cut!

Sorry about the Section 45 mix-up. I think because I put you in the MW for Sections 1 and 45, and then you posted sections 1 and 30 immediately after I must have got confused. All fixed now!

[sylviamb]

Thank you so much for catching that booboo in chapter 28. All fixed up and here's the re-uploaded file:
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_28_barrie_128kb.mp3

And here's a couple more for good measure.

Section 36 Time 15:31
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_36_barrie_128kb.mp3

Section 37 Time 12:41
https://librivox.org/uploads/maryannspiegel/littleminister_37_barrie_128kb.mp3

Have an enjoyable day!

Sylvia

[Elizabby]

Chapter 28 is now PL OK! The others are in the MW and I hope to get them done by the end of the week.