[COMPLETE] Le Paradise Perdu de Milton (Chateaubriand) - ava

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chymocles
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Post by chymocles » August 27th, 2016, 4:00 am

[Sigh of relief!]

Thanks!

chymocles
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Post by chymocles » September 6th, 2016, 5:19 pm

Sonia, I'm puzzling over spelling. God is prophesying the Atonement: ". . . il sera jugé et mourra; et en mourant il se relèvera, et en se relevant relèvera avec lui tous ses frères rachetés par son sang précieux." Is the vowel of "relèvera" different in quality from that in "relevant" or is it simply given some stress? I do so want to do God justice!

:hmm:

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Post by Kitty » September 6th, 2016, 5:30 pm

chymocles wrote:Sonia, I'm puzzling over spelling. God is prophesying the Atonement: ". . . il sera jugé et mourra; et en mourant il se relèvera, et en se relevant relèvera avec lui tous ses frères rachetés par son sang précieux." Is the vowel of "relèvera" different in quality from that in "relevant" or is it simply given some stress? I do so want to do God justice!

:hmm:
LOL do God justice !

yes there is a difference in how to pronounce, but how to explain that now ?

the 'è' in "relèvera" is pronounced like the 'ai' in "mais", so "relaivera". the 'e' in "relevant" is twice the same pronounced, more "flat", a bit like the english "purr" "r'uh'-l'uh'-vant". does that make sense ? I could make you a sound file if you want to hear me say both. But not tonight, I need to be in bed...

Sonia

chymocles
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Post by chymocles » September 6th, 2016, 6:02 pm

I think I'll leave it as I've done it and wait to see what you think. I find that Howtopronounce.com has the word "relevera" but without the grave accent, while Forvo has only "relèverait," and the pronunciation is twangy and hard to hear. I have pronounced it with the "e" of "elf." It's not by any means a long "e," but I'm satisfied with it, and I'd like to see how it sounds to you in context. The book is moving slowly because it is short on action, long on theology, and I'm getting ready to go to Canada for the Shakespeare Festival.

Thanks for the coaching.

Would you say that the "e" of "arrêt" is at all close to the "è" of "relèvera"? And are both of these vowels are more like that in "cher" than that in "chair"?

Tom

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Post by Kitty » September 7th, 2016, 1:03 am

chymocles wrote:I think I'll leave it as I've done it and wait to see what you think.
I'm sure you did well, judging but what I heard so far from you :)
I find that Howtopronounce.com has the word "relevera" but without the grave accent
well that must be a typo, because that word does not exist without è
I'm getting ready to go to Canada for the Shakespeare Festival.
that sounds like fun. How many plays (and which) are you going to see ?
Would you say that the "e" of "arrêt" is at all close to the "è" of "relèvera"? And are both of these vowels are more like that in "cher" than that in "chair"?
do you mean the French word "chair" or the English ? Because in French "chair" and "cher" are pronounced exactly the same. Well maybe you would say the vowel in "chair" a tiny bit longer dragged out than in "cher" but basically it's the same sound.

I made you a sound-file and will PM you this, so you can judge for yourself. :)

Sonia

chymocles
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Post by chymocles » September 7th, 2016, 5:57 am

The sound file gives me hope that I have done the sentence right. Thanks, and you have a lovely voice. I have probably been obsessing. Also, I think I have distinguished sufficiently between "la chair" and "cher." That is to say, there is little difference except that the noun is longer. As for "arrêt," though, I'm still uncertain how tense the vowel is. Certainly it will not sound just like the English "array," since we diphthongize a long vowel, but it's probably close, and I'll bet I'm worrying unnecessarily. This is another word I think I'll keep as is and just see if it strikes you as odd.

I have also been making an effort to use the open "o" more than Americans typically do. We get away with pronouncing "bonne" identically to the English "bun," whereas Brits find no trouble with this vowel. But "homme" occurs so often and is so important that I thought a little effort was called for; "ummm" just wouldn't cut it. However, I may well be bungling it.

You needn't reply to these idle thoughts. I just wanted you to know that your efforts to make this project better are not cast away on barren soil.

Tom

chymocles
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Post by chymocles » October 15th, 2016, 10:21 am

It appears that all posts after September 7 have disappeared. Odd.

I need to ask you a question, Sonia: Should I read the last sentence here as an exclamation or as a question?
Gabriel, tu avais dans le ciel la réputation d’être sage, et je te tenais pour tel; mais la question que tu me fais me met en doute. Qu’il vive en enfer celui qui aime son supplice !
It is a question in the English:
Gabriel, thou hadst in Heav'n th' esteem of wise,
And such I held thee; but this question askt
Puts me in doubt. Lives ther who loves his pain?
The French might be an implied remark like "You seem to imagine that hell holds someone who enjoys pain."

Tom

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Post by tovarisch » October 15th, 2016, 10:22 am

tovarisch
  • reality prompts me to scale down my reading, sorry to say
    to PLers: do correct my pronunciation please

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Post by Availle » October 15th, 2016, 4:18 pm

Tom, I'm very sorry, but we had a server problem that reset our forum (the whole webpage, actually) to September 15th...

Please reupload all your files that are not in the Magic Window yet. As far as I remember, they were all PL OK? Please make sure you upload the PL OK version of the files :wink:

Thanks for your patience and sorry for the inconvenience... :oops:
Cheers,
Ava.

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Post by Kitty » October 15th, 2016, 4:27 pm

chymocles wrote:I need to ask you a question, Sonia: Should I read the last sentence here as an exclamation or as a question?
Gabriel, tu avais dans le ciel la réputation d’être sage, et je te tenais pour tel; mais la question que tu me fais me met en doute. Qu’il vive en enfer celui qui aime son supplice !
It is a question in the English:
Gabriel, thou hadst in Heav'n th' esteem of wise,
And such I held thee; but this question askt
Puts me in doubt. Lives ther who loves his pain?
The French might be an implied remark like "You seem to imagine that hell holds someone who enjoys pain."
Tom
In answer to your question, since we can post again safely, here it is:

Well the French definitely is NOT a question. The structure of the sentence is not a question structure and the ! at the end shows that as well.

For me, not knowing the English, it would have meant: "Let him who loves his pain live in hell !" This "qu'il" definitely would mean that structure. For example: S'il ne veut pas rester, eh bien, qu'il s'en aille ! - If he does not like to stay, well, let him go ! It's a bit rude as a structure as well, implying "I don't care" LOL well that's how I would use it.

If there HAD been a question mark at the end, it could have been read as: "(Tu veux vraiment me faire croire) qu’il vive en enfer celui qui aime son supplice ?" - You really want me to believe that him who loves his pain is living (already) in hell ?

But as I said, the exclamation mark means more the other. But if that is totally contrary to Milton, either, Chateaubriand was mistaken or there's a typo...

Basically, the way you will interpret it, is your choice :)

And please tell me you kept your files.... :help:

Sonia

chymocles
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Post by chymocles » October 15th, 2016, 7:49 pm

Well, first of all, "Backup" is my middle name. I'll get those files back up there. And thanks for the feedback. I suppose it's possible that the sentence was so compressed and the idiom so recherché that Chateaubriand misunderstood it. Your reading would certainly fit the context and might have seemed reasonable to the translator. I'll try it.

chymocles
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Post by chymocles » October 15th, 2016, 9:27 pm

I'm uploading the missing files along with the new file, number 6. I had to divide Book 4 into two parts, but I don't know how to add lines to the MW, so I simply renamed a couple. More can be added as needed. I think I may have to do more dividing later on. Here is the new file: <https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_06_milton_128kb.mp3>

Tom

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Post by Kitty » October 16th, 2016, 1:23 am

chymocles wrote:I'm uploading the missing files along with the new file, number 6. I had to divide Book 4 into two parts, but I don't know how to add lines to the MW, so I simply renamed a couple. More can be added as needed. I think I may have to do more dividing later on. Here is the new file: <https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_06_milton_128kb.mp3>

Tom
I added Chapter 5 again :) It's actually quite simple, you need to push the "add new section" button on top of the MW (in the working area, not in your first post) Then you name it in the first slot, input your reader name in the second slot and press ok. It will go all to the bottom of the MW but you can drag and drop it to the correct place afterwards.

Will PL probably in the afternoon.

And I'm so relieved the other files are save !!!!!

Sonia

chymocles
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Post by chymocles » October 16th, 2016, 5:35 am

I did as you said, then dragged it to the correct position and dropped it in, but when I inspected it, the reader's name had not survived although I did create it at first. I did not notice whether it disappeared or never appeared at all. Anyway, I couldn't edit that cell (I double-clicked on it as the online directions said to do, but nothing happened). So I dragged the whole line to the foot and thought I would try again. That time it worked. Maybe you know how to delete the imperfect line at the foot.

Tom

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Post by Availle » October 16th, 2016, 5:39 am

For the reader, enter the first few letters - then a dropdown appears. You must choose the name from the dropdown, otherwise it will not stick.

I have done that for you now. You now have two chapters 5 part 2 :wink:
Cheers,
Ava.

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