[COMPLETE] Le Paradise Perdu de Milton (Chateaubriand) - ava

[chymocles]

Wow! Thanks a million, Sonia. I'll get to work right away (after finishing a newsletter I'm compiling and typing up some meeting minutes).

Tom

[Kitty]

Wow! Thanks a million, Sonia. I'll get to work right away (after finishing a newsletter I'm compiling and typing up some meeting minutes).

Tom

Oh I'm relieved, you were ok with this. I was so afraid to post this lengthy list...

Sonia

[chymocles]

why is this chapter 0 ?

We'll have to leave that to Ava until I find out how to get into the Magic Window. I seem to have forgotten how.

Maybe you could manually adjust the volume at some places

Yes, I will address this issue. I think it can probably be improved by the Leveler function of Audacity. I do most of my editing with other programs, but that is one nice feature of Audacity that I have never found elsewhere.

Thanks for your appreciation of the acting. I belong to a community theater and do everything except act, but as long as I don't have to be seen, I love acting.

the intro is not 100% the same than stated in your first post

I will re-record it, but first please advise me: The post (which I did not write) directs me to say, "Livre ## de LE PARADIS PERDU," but I wonder about "de le" unless perhaps it is acceptable in that the article is part of a title. I would have said, "du."

at 2:36: "prophétie": this word is pronounced "prophé-sie", even though there is a "t"

This is the first of several problems of historical interest. Today's pronunciation and spelling differ in some respects from that of the Romantic period, and I hesitate to attempt to speak with historical accuracy since I have nothing but the spelling to go on and (more importantly) because I fear that the deviations may not be recognized as an attempt at accuracy since I am not a native speaker. In English, I boldly offer quaint pronunciations when they serve some purpose, like making the line scan correctly, but I wonder whether there is much point in pronouncing "Anglais"as "Anglois" and so forth.

at 4:03: "te plaisent d’avantage"

It certainly ought to be "te," but in both texts it reads "le." The English is "thee," so "le" is a misprint. What text are you using? I probably ought to use it.

A number of little things seem to be textual errors in the digitized text I was using. I'll fix 'em and alert the webmaster.

qui, là concevant le feu, sont lancées au ciel

I will separate "là" from "concevant" for clarity, but I must keep the pause before it too, for there is a comma there. The meaning is "thence conceiving fire"; i.e., catching on fire from this.

I find that in Audition I can erase sibilants without re-recording. This will take care of most of the liaisons before "et."

Thanks so much, Sonia, for all your painstaking work. I will learn, and then you will have less (or at least different) trouble to deal with. Now it's time to sleep. I'll get to the rest later.

Tom

[Availle]

It's chapter 0 because Tom gave that information when he set up the project. Usually, chapter 0 is reserved for some sort of introduction or so. If there is none, I can delete the chapter 0, no problem.

As for entering the MW, you should have a specific password for the workflow area (it also works for the uploader, by the way). If you have forgotten it, here is how to get a new one:

1. Use this Link to go the main login screen: http://librivox.org/workflow
2. Click on Login (for BCs & MCs)
3. Enter your forum username.
4. Click “Forgot Password”
5. You will receive an email with a link to reset your password. Click the link and enter a password and submit the form.
6. Go back to the main login screen and use the new password you entered above to log in to the system.

Let me know if this is working.

[Kitty]

Hi again

We'll have to leave that to Ava until I find out how to get into the Magic Window. I seem to have forgotten how.

there's this button BC Admin underneath the MW where you can log on and then you get access

Thanks for your appreciation of the acting. I belong to a community theater and do everything except act, but as long as I don't have to be seen, I love acting.

hehe, we are similar in that respect

I will re-record it, but first please advise me: The post (which I did not write) directs me to say, "Livre ## de LE PARADIS PERDU," but I wonder about "de le" unless perhaps it is acceptable in that the article is part of a title. I would have said, "du."

I pondered this for a while because “de le” sounds very wrong, but I understand that the article is part of the title. I just now went and asked a French grammar teacher that I know and she said you should say the gramatically correct “du” and contract the article into that word. And I also see in the introduction of the book that the translator himself wrote “livre premier du paradis perdu”, so I guess the best thing would be to say it like that as well.

In English, I boldly offer quaint pronunciations when they serve some purpose, like making the line scan correctly, but I wonder whether there is much point in pronouncing "Anglais"as "Anglois" and so forth.

ah I see what you mean. Well I’m not sure how prophetie was pronounced during the time of Chateaubriand (I probably could look it up though). But yes I think it would be best if you pronounced it the modern way, so as not to confuse the modern listener. Luckily the quaint verb forms from Molière with the “-oit” ending instead of “-ait” are not to be found in this text LOL

It certainly ought to be "te," but in both texts it reads "le." The English is "thee," so "le" is a misprint. What text are you using? I probably ought to use it.

I used the text that you put in the first post: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5452523p/f10.image
and there it definitely was “te”

I will separate "là" from "concevant" for clarity, but I must keep the pause before it too, for there is a comma there. The meaning is "thence conceiving fire"; i.e., catching on fire from this.

hm I rechecked just now and didn’t see a comma. There was a little blot, maybe you saw that as comma ? Anyway, yes it should mean “there conceiving fire”

I will learn, and then you will have less (or at least different) trouble to deal with.

yes I’m sure the first chapter is always the hardest. Anyway, you really didn’t do many errors considering the lengthy text. Btw I think there is a time limit for sections, 70 minutes or so. So if the next chapters are even longer, you need to do them in two parts.

Sonia

[chymocles]

I'm confused about the -s on the end of "plus." I understand pronouncing it as /z/ in liaisons and as /s/ at the end of a phrase or in calculations, but where else must the -s be pronounced? The two examples you gave me, Sonia, were "plus de" and I suppose that there are some places where the -s must be pronounced in this phrase and others where is must be silent. I checked Les Lettres persanes at LibriVox, and I found this passage where the reader leaves the -s off twice:

J’ai mon champ à labourer ; je n’irai peut-être pas employer mon temps à terminer vos différends et à travailler à vos affaires, tandis que je négligerai les miennes ; je vous prie de me laisser en repos, et de ne m’importuner plus de vos querelles. Là-dessus il les quitta, et s’en alla travailler sa terre. Le ravisseur, qui étoit le plus fort, jura qu’il mourroit plutôt que de rendre cette femme ; et l’autre, pénétré de l’injustice de son voisin et de la dureté du juge, s’en retournoit désespéré, lorsqu’il trouva dans son chemin une femme jeune et belle, qui revenoit de la fontaine. Il n’avoit plus de femme, celle-là lui plut ; et elle lui plut bien davantage lorsqu’il apprit que c’étoit la femme de celui qu’il avoit voulu prendre pour juge, et qui avoit été si peu sensible à son malheur : il l’enleva, et l’emmena dans sa maison.

In these cases, "plus" belongs to the phrase "ne . . . plus" and so is not related in any way to "de." That would differentiate it from "Mais sa sentence le réservait encore à plus de colère," where "plus" is a noun. I notice that in "avec plus d’espoir" the word is also a noun. So is that the difference? Must the -s be pronounced if "plus" is a noun?

--------------------

at 46:53: “son regard expérimenté”: I hear an s-liaison here

Between what two words?

--------------------

I've made all the other corrections, some of which were scanning errors, and such will not occur anymore since I will be using the PDF file. I'll wait a day and then upload the corrected file.

[Kitty]

Hi Tom

I'm confused about the -s on the end of "plus." I understand pronouncing it as /z/ in liaisons and as /s/ at the end of a phrase or in calculations, but where else must the -s be pronounced?

yes there is a rule. "plus" has two meanings actually and depending on these meanings, it's either with pronounced "s" or with silent "s". I give you some examples so you understand what I mean.

The ones you mentioned from the lettres persanes are both in the "silent" category, that's true. They both mean "not anymore": "de ne m’importuner plus de vos querelles" = "don't bother me anymore with your quarrels" and "Il n’avoit plus de femme" = "he didn't have a wife anymore". So basically you could say, if you have a negated sentence, it's almost always that meaning of "plus" and the "s" will be silent.

The two places where I mentioned you should say the "s" have a different meaning, they each time mean "more than" (in quantity): “plus de colère“ = he had more anger and "avec plus d’espoir" = "with more hope". So the difference is, does it mean actually "more in quantity" then it is pronounced "s", does it mean "less, actually nothing, not anymore" then the "s" is silent.

A good example to illustrate BOTH pronunciations would be the following, albeit awkward construction:

"Il n'avait plus plus d'argent que son frère." Which means "He did not have more money than his brother anymore." Here the red plus will be silent s and the green plus will be with spoken s.

Did I make sense ?

So is that the difference? Must the -s be pronounced if "plus" is a noun?

yes, you may probably say it like that, if know how to clearly differentiate there. Because if "plus" is used as adjective or adverb, even if it means "more" it will have silent s, so in the example "il est plus fort qu'elle" "he is stronger than her", you don't say the s. But that is a "qualitative more" and not a "quantitative more".

at 46:53: “son regard expérimenté”: I hear an s-liaison here.
Between what two words?

actually I meant between regard and expérimenté, I heard "regard-s-expérimenté". Ok I just listened once more to be sure, it is a very soft s, maybe you don't have to change it, maybe I was only too attuned to finding all the errors that I heard it, and the casual listener won't.

I've made all the other corrections, some of which were scanning errors, and such will not occur anymore since I will be using the PDF file. I'll wait a day and then upload the corrected file.

ok I'll check them during the day

Sonia

[Kitty]

I actually browsed a bit through the internet about this "plus" problem and there is a nice site where you can test yourself whether you have understood what I meant LOL Also there are some more examples at the beginning to illustrate the differences. The ones I referred to in the previous post are example 3: "Nom" and Example 6 "ne plus au sens négatif".

http://www.lepointdufle.net/ressources_fle/plus.htm

I just made the exercice, and had them all correct

Sonia

[chymocles]

Well, I didn't. "Il travaille beaucoup plus que nous tous" doesn't seem to involve a noun or a verb. "Plus" is a simply adverb. Contrariwise, in "Je n'en veux plus" it is a noun; even though part of the "ne . . plus" idiom, the word "plus" must be a noun since "en" modifies it adjectivally. I must be looking at this all wrong. Tell me, is it possible to say, "Je ne le veut plus"? If so, "plus" would be pronounced without a sibilant ending, no? "I want no more of it" [=ne plus]/ "I don't want it any longer [=ne plus]." Would "plus" be pronounced the same way in both sentences? That seems screwy to me.

Thanks for your website, though. I will keep thinking about it. I also have a useful website: http://forvo.com/search/Thebes/.

I listened to the whole book again looking just for "et" and found just two errors you missed, correcting all of them. I do understand this now. I'll make my final few corrections this evening and re-post the file. Thanks a lot.

Tom

[chymocles]

I am uploading the file now. I used the leveler rather aggressively, and as a result (I think) the average volume is a little higher than normal. There are no major peaks and valleys because even though the reading did involve shouts and near-whispers, I wanted the whispers to be heard easily. I am not displeased with the result, but the file failed the Checker test by a little bit. I really doubt that it will sound loud, but tell me what you think. I can make it softer or I can ease up on the leveler.

Tom

[Kitty]

Well, I didn't. "Il travaille beaucoup plus que nous tous" doesn't seem to involve a noun or a verb. "Plus" is a simply adverb. Contrariwise, in "Je n'en veux plus" it is a noun; even though part of the "ne . . plus" idiom, the word "plus" must be a noun since "en" modifies it adjectivally. I must be looking at this all wrong. Tell me, is it possible to say, "Je ne le veut plus"? If so, "plus" would be pronounced without a sibilant ending, no? "I want no more of it" [=ne plus]/ "I don't want it any longer [=ne plus]." Would "plus" be pronounced the same way in both sentences? That seems screwy to me.

you actually make me think about grammar points, which I rarely do, because I do it correctly by instinct. Well, but in your case here, I can maybe clarify a bit:

"Il travaille beaucoup plus que nous tous" doesn't seem to involve a noun or a verb. "Plus" is a simply adverb.

no I don't think it's an adverb here, it means "quantitatively more" again here, so you need to say the s. "He works a lot more than we do". It would be an adverb in the sentence: Il travaille beaucoup plus rapidement que nous tous - he works much faster than us all, and there you don't say the s

Contrariwise, in "Je n'en veux plus" it is a noun; even though part of the "ne . . plus" idiom, the word "plus" must be a noun since "en" modifies it adjectivally.

yes as I said, in most negative sentences it means "not anymore" and there you don't say the s. Je n'en veux plus means, I don't want it anymore. "en" is not in relation with "plus" but with some noun that has been specified in the sentence that must have come before. example: Tu peux garder mon livre. Je n'en veux plus. - You can keep my book. I don't want it anymore. Without saying what this "en" is referring to, this sentence alone is not comprehensible.

So in both examples, my rule was applying: first sentence, meaning "more" - s pronounced / second sentence, meaning "not anymore" - mute s

I listened to the whole book again looking just for "et" and found just two errors you missed, correcting all of them. I do understand this now.

oh I still missed two ? well, great you checked again I will have a re-listen to all the parts again now. So I take it you only spot corrected the seconds I listed up ? I only have to check those sentences ?

Stay tuned

Sonia

[Kitty]

I am uploading the file now. I used the leveler rather aggressively, and as a result (I think) the average volume is a little higher than normal. There are no major peaks and valleys because even though the reading did involve shouts and near-whispers, I wanted the whispers to be heard easily. I am not displeased with the result, but the file failed the Checker test by a little bit. I really doubt that it will sound loud, but tell me what you think. I can make it softer or I can ease up on the leveler.

Tom

Well I just finished Spot PLing and I must say, I'm in awe. To be honest, when I had to tackle this long list I was a bit discouraged, I feared, there can be so much that could go wrong again. But I ticked off one after the other and you managed to correct so flawlessy. (needs two thumbs).

BTW I am glad now I mentioned the "et" that should not have liaison. I must admit, when I first noticed that you did that, I thought, let this pass, it's really too picky. And some of them you spoke correctly, so I thought, those few don't matter. But in the end they irked me a little bit and since you wanted picky I took the resolution to mention them anyway. And now that I listen to it again, without liaison, I am totally relieved that I did mention them and that you put in the effort of correcting them, because by comparison, it sounds SO MUCH BETTER now. Before, I would say your "et" sentences are "not too bad", but now I can say they are "really good". Shows again, that it's good to go the extra mile to make the recording something special.

Everything is corrected now. Only thing that remains is the checker, it's at 94.8 dB. I think we need to stay under 92 dB for LV standards. I guess that also applies for Solos, but I'm not 100% sure. In that case you would need to de-amplify it a bit, but I fear then some parts will be whispered. Not really sure what to do...

Sonia

[Availle]

About the volume: 89 dB is optimal.
Since this is a solo, if all the files have a similar volume (within, say, 3 dB), then we're fine either way.

I usually use the leveller as well for my recordings to even things out a bit, and then I use the normalize function (with a setting of -3.0) to bring everything down a bit again.

Tom, do you need that section 0 now or not? I can easily remove it, just let me know.

[chymocles]

Sonia, I appreciate your praise and am glad to have made the corrections without any obvious patching. I spent 35 years pointing out other people's editorial blunders and checking their corrections later, and I know that this is the way people learn, so keep on picking.

Ava, I thought I'd read the introduction last. I may do it in small chunks as I go along. Let's leave it in the MW for now. Thanks.

As for the volume, I'll follow your advice, lowering to 90db. I do like it a little louder than the norm for listening in the car.

Tom

[chymocles]

Thanks, Sonia, for your willingness to discuss grammar; I haven't had anyone to talk to about it for 50 years. On the other hand I hate to ask you to spend time on it. Just one more query about this "ne . . . plus" matter, though: I was not aware that "Tu peux garder mon livre. Je n'en veux plus" was correct; I thought it had to be "Je ne le veux plus." I was under the misapprehension that "en" always meant "of it." Now I see that "en" can be a direct object of a verb. But is can also mean "of it" or "of them" in certain circumstances, so would the following also be correct, but with an "-s" at the end: "J'ai trop d'outiles pour le bois. Je n'en veux plus" (i.e., I want no more of them")? My reason for thinking so is that in the second sentence "plus" is clearly the direct object of "veux."