COMPLETE - Vanity Fair by William Thackeray - AF/tc

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mjd-s
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Joined: October 17th, 2005, 1:35 am

Post by mjd-s » January 8th, 2006, 8:57 pm

I'll do chapters 19 and 20 if you like....(they seem to be my lucky chapter numbers)....

Jon Ingram
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Post by Jon Ingram » January 8th, 2006, 10:04 pm

Thanks, both of you. Chapter list updated.

avoo47
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Location: Tampa, FL

Post by avoo47 » January 14th, 2006, 9:12 pm

I'd like to attempt chapter 8.

I'm a new poster and reader.

Wish me well!


Bob

Krista Jo
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Post by Krista Jo » January 15th, 2006, 8:32 am

I'd like to do Chapter 36, please.

Oh - and for the poster who hasn't read the book yet, My Fair Lady is a spinoff of Pygmalion, not Vanity Fair. You may be disappointed!

Cheers,
Krista Jo

wendyg
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Post by wendyg » January 16th, 2006, 8:33 am

[quote="Jon Ingram"]Vanity Fair
by William Makepeace Thackeray.

[*] CLAIMED wendyg Chapter 04: The Green Silk Purse

Query: how do you want us to handle incomplete swear words? In my chapter there appears the following:

>> "If I stand this, sir, I?m d--!" roared Joseph.>>

How do you think we should pronounce such things?

wg

ChipDoc
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Post by ChipDoc » January 16th, 2006, 11:50 am

I personally wouldn't have the slightest problem with your simply saying "Damn" out loud. It's hardly as if hearing it would cause strong men to blanch and women to faint dead away... Our culture has changed quite a bit from the time when such words were kept from "polite society". It was obviously the intent of the author to use that particular word, so I say use it!
-Chip
[url]http://ChipDoc.com/LibriVox/[/url]
[i]The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.[/i]
~Mark Twain

wendyg
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Post by wendyg » January 18th, 2006, 4:33 am

ChipDoc wrote:I personally wouldn't have the slightest problem with your simply saying "Damn" out loud. It's hardly as if hearing it would cause strong men to blanch and women to faint dead away... Our culture has changed quite a bit from the time when such words were kept from "polite society". It was obviously the intent of the author to use that particular word, so I say use it!
Well, ideally there should be a guideline so however it's done is consistent across the entire book. And that was really my main point.

But it's actually quite a complex decision, because you are deciding whether you want to present Thackeray's work as he wrote it, reflecting the culture around him; or whether you're updating it for your own culture. (Broader, more extreme examples exist all around us -- look at the way the old Nancy Drew books were updated as time went on. If you read them as a child and want to recreate the expderience you had, you have to scour for used copies of the right vintage. But your children may prefer the modern rewrites that give them an analogous experience to the one you had). Since we're not updating anything else, it seems odd to say "Damn" when he didn't or couldn't.

And *not* saying it I suppose also subtly conveyed a certain suggesting that the person whose speech was not fully reported was a bit of a cad, saying such things in front of ladies.

wg

Jon Ingram
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Post by Jon Ingram » January 18th, 2006, 6:31 am

I have no preference, but one potential way of handling dashed-out words is to beep them out, in the same way that you hear when people swear on TV or radio programmes.

ChipDoc
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Post by ChipDoc » January 18th, 2006, 3:44 pm

wendyg wrote:
ChipDoc wrote:It was obviously the intent of the author to use that particular word, so I say use it!
you are deciding whether you want to present Thackeray's work as he wrote it, reflecting the culture around him; or whether you're updating it for your own culture.
There's also the question of exactly who was doing the cultural updating. when we see d--- in a script, we all understand it to be the word damn. It IS what Thackeray wrote. But where exactly did that --- come from? Since Thackeray apparently did intend for that word to be understood, isn't it more likely that his original publisher made the change rather than the author? And if so, aren't we simply transmitting the values of another time into our own performances, rather than transmitting the author's intent?

You're right that it's a complex question, but I think it would be best to let the individual readers make that decision on their own, as we do with the rest of the works we read here. That way we'll get a variety of answers - all of which would be acceptable.
-Chip
[url]http://ChipDoc.com/LibriVox/[/url]
[i]The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.[/i]
~Mark Twain

wendyg
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Post by wendyg » January 18th, 2006, 4:43 pm

The copy-editor in me favors consistency. :)

But really what I *want* to do is: Say "damn", and bleep out all but the first letter. Anyone got a good way of doing this?

(btw, I couldn't say without doing historical research whether the decision to write it d___ was made by Thackeray or his publisher. Do you have an actual source for saying it was the publisher?)

wg

ChipDoc
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Post by ChipDoc » January 18th, 2006, 4:54 pm

Though I don't have a source for it, it hangs together logically. Thackeray obviously intended that word to be understood. He certainly wrote it in there in one form or another. But Thackeray was an artist - less concerned with the effect such a thing might have on the reading (and buying) public than would have his publisher.

The publisher would have had a much greater vested interest in keeping possible offence from the printed page. It stands to reason that the edit happened at that point. If Thackeray had been concerned about it, he simply would have used a different word in the first place.

But he DID use that word; he used it for the power of emotion that it evoked. As recently as the 1930s, that word still held considerable emotional power. What people remembered most about the 3-hour epic film Gone With The Wind was Rhett Butler's comment as he left Scarlett - despite the fact that it was just a tiny part of the film as a whole.
-Chip
[url]http://ChipDoc.com/LibriVox/[/url]
[i]The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.[/i]
~Mark Twain

suburbanbanshee
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Post by suburbanbanshee » January 19th, 2006, 10:47 am

No, he didn't use the word. He invoked the word without actually using it. That's a dashed different thing.

:)

For example, there are many children's songs (the kind written by actual children, that is) which still use this principle of letting the listener know what the word is, without actually saying the word, or by justifying the word as not really a bad one.

For example:

They should have gone to Amster- (sh!)
They should have gone to Amster- (sh!)
Amster-, Amster- (sh, sh, sh!)
Amster-, Amster- (sh, sh, sh!)
They should have gone to Amster- (sh!)

Or:

Miss Mary had a steamboat.
The steamboat had a bell.
Miss Mary went to Heaven.
The steamboat went to...

Hello, operator!
Give me number nine!
And if you do not like it,
Then kiss my fat...

Behind the 'frigerator,
There was a piece of glass
Miss Mary sat upon it
And broke her little....

(etc, etc....)

So the oratorical act of indicating the word but not saying it is in fact an important act of authorial intention.

I recommend "d-dash-dash-dash" or whatever the typographical convention in the book may be. Otherwise, you'll sound deuced ungentlemanly or unladylike. You'll also endanger the reading's survival in the future, for Western society's standards of appropriate words in a public setting are bound to continue to fluctuate back and forth along the centuries. We are reading for the future, not just for today.

suburbanbanshee
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Post by suburbanbanshee » January 19th, 2006, 10:53 am

That said, there's no particular reason not to amuse yourself and the listeners. Put a bleep that sounds like some serious narrator or panicked lady saying "dash-dash-dash". Make a line of asterisks denoting folks up to something in the bedroom sound like heavy breathing or something.

You know Monty Python would want you to.

staceyo
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Post by staceyo » January 21st, 2006, 1:10 pm

:oops: Mixed up Pygmalion and Vanity Fair--sorry about that! I haven't read either one yet, so this will be a good project for me to get my novels straight!

I want to let you know that I have NOT forgotten about my chapter (chapter 7)--I've been rehearsing for a play that opened this weekend, so I've been a bit more preoccupied than I thought I would be. But next week life gets back to normal, so I should be able to work on the chapter and get it in to you soon.

Hope everyone else's chapters are going well...I'm looking forward to exploring what's been done now that I'll have some more time.

Cheers,

Stacey
Stacey Ford Osborne

Jon Ingram
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Post by Jon Ingram » January 23rd, 2006, 3:11 pm

chanse has done chapter 6, and has claimed chapter 9.

As I mention in the project comments, it would be appreciated if you'd post a message on this thread including a link to the file when you've finished it -- I don't check the email account I linked to all that often, so it may go several days before I download your material if there's no message on here.

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