COMPLETE: Manfred by Lord Byron- alg

[TimSC]

As a small footnote, there are a few works inspired by Manfred, and I thought I would share them.

http://archive.org/details/SchumannManfredOverture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_on_the_Jungfrau_%281842%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cole_Thomas_Scene_from_-Manfred_1833.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_on_the_Jungfrau_%281837%29
And just for fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6NaVmeayis

[MARTIN GEESON]

[quote="MARTIN GEESON"]Hi

Here's A Voice from Act 1 (Section 16).

I really enjoyed this. It reminded me what fun I had reading Zastrozzi.

http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/alg/manfred_avoice_1.mp3
Duration 04:41
quote]

And here's Arimanes. If it sounds too 'first-generation Dr Who', I can re-do it:

http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/alg/manfred_arimanes_2.mp3
Duration - 00:23

Guildford, really? - I work there, though I wish I could give all that up and take up reading aloud full-time.

Best
Martin

[hggarrett]

Hello, can I please read the 5th spirit?

Thanks,
Grace

[TimSC]

Martin, I was thinking of adding some audio effects to Arimanes anyway. Your reading is fine.

hggarrett, I have assigned the part to you. Please read your solo sections, as well as the chorus sections I listed in my 25th March forum post. The chorus sections should be read in time with the audio files I have linked in that forum post.

Thanks,

Tim

[Verity91]

Third Spirit lines for you. Chorus lines have been recorded and should roughly match with Snapdragon's:

Act 1, Scene 1
MP3: http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/alg/Manfred_thirdspirit_1.mp3
Length: 0:52 / 0.8MB

Act 2, Scene 4
MP3: http://upload.librivox.org/share/uploads/alg/manfred_thirdspirit_2.mp3
Length: 1:31 / 1.39MB

[TimSC]

Verity91, thanks for your recording!

I have created a script for the narrator [1]

I was again considering music and sound effects and I looked at the Librivox guidelines [2] which could hardly be more anti-music and sound effects. This seems to be contradicted by some, such as the thread on editing dramatic works [3] and in some recordings, such as the excellent reading of the Rime of the Ancient Mariner [4]. Manfred does have stage directions for both singing and sound effects. We have omitted the singing and this could be replaced by music, but there is not much loss without music IMHO. I think sound effects would be beneficial. This could be with the narrator reading the stage direction or drop the narration if it is redundant. Can I have an opinion from the MC or other librivox admins on this issue?

And another MC question: for dramatic readings, is it usual to have the PL check on separate parts, or after they have been edited together?

Tim

[1] http://www.sheerman-chase.org.uk/temp/ManfredNarrator.html
[2] http://wiki.librivox.org/index.php/Music_Rules
[3] viewtopic.php?t=4836
[4] http://librivox.org/long-poems-collection-005/

[alg1001]

Hi Tim,

Having both the sound effects and the narrator describing them can work well.
It is best to PL the parts individually and then when the play is all put together, PL the whole also.

Thanks,
-Amy

[wildemoose]

This seems to be contradicted by some, such as the thread on editing dramatic works [3]
[3] viewtopic.php?t=4836

That thread is from 2006, e.g. very very old and long before the rules about music and sound effects had been codified. We generally don't use music or sound effects because it's difficult to determine whether or not they're PD. I'm okay with a knock on the table which is obviously generated by the reader when the script calls for a knock at the door, but anything more than that makes me nervous.

[TimSC]

The most sound related stage direction in Manfred is probably "The Shepherd's pipe in the distance is heard." but there are several scenes that take place involving outdoor scenes with waterfalls and mountain climbing. Also, there are several times spirits materialise and dematerialise, as well as human entrances and exits which would usually be accompanied by sound.

The guideline page is itself not consistent because it has a simple policy : "NO" but then explains how music and sound can be used in librivox recordings!

I find it interesting that simple sound effects like knocking on a door are ok but rarer sounds are not ok. Just making the sound effects sound simple doesn't make them more or less legally risky than complex sounds, I'd say. I think even if I personally had to record or synthesize the sound effects myself it would be better than none at all. (I might need to wait until it snows to get the opportunity though!)

If the primary concern is to use PD material exclusively, I believe that can be done. I have some experience of these issues in my involvement with reuse of PD maps in OpenStreetMap, as well as use of flickr CC and PD photographs. I am thinking that music should be avoided unless it is an original composition (unless we are very sure it is OK). However, I don't think we need to take an alarmist position regarding sound effects that are available as PD. I guess my current plan is to continue with sound effects but be extremely cautious of their providence and PD verifiability...

Tim

[wildemoose]

The guideline page is itself not consistent because it has a simple policy : "NO" but then explains how music and sound can be used in librivox recordings!
Tim

Tim, I'm not sure what part of it you're thinking is inconsistent. I'm looking at the page right now and it's pretty clear: no music or sound effects are permitted. Here is the full text:

No.

LibriVox's mission is to make all books in the public domain available, for free, in audio format on the Internet. Adding music or other effects makes it harder for us to achieve our objective by introducing complicated copyright issues, adding work for our MCs, and by occasionally obscuring the reading of the text.

If you would like to add music or creative effects to your recording, we encourage you to send an enhanced version separately to another host such as Archive.org. If you do this by cataloguing time, your MC may be able to include a link to your creative version on the Librivox catalog page, giving listeners a choice. Please note: in the first few years of Librivox we did allow occasional public-domain music or sound effects to be added, so you might hear them in some recordings.

The only exception to the no-music rule is when music is specified in the text. This most commonly occurs when a character in a play or novel breaks into song. In this case, you may sing the song yourself, using a tune that is clearly in the public domain both in the USA and in your own country. (If you prefer not to sing, check with your BC -- it may be OK to simply read the passage without singing. If it is your own solo, it is your choice whether to sing.) Certain projects such as operas and song collections obviously specify music as part of the text, so special rules apply for the music used in those projects (see below).

We have no way of knowing that any sound effects you might find online are PD. There is no curated PD site for sound effects along the lines of Project Gutenberg (that I'm aware of) so even if a sound is listed as being PD, it may not be. We simply do not have the time or resources to defend any challenges to sound effects or music placed in recordings. This is why we suggest that if you do want to use sound effects, you submit the "clean" version to Librivox and upload the other version to Archive.org yourself.

[TriciaG]

Also, sound effects get in the way of vocals at times, and are annoying.

Our general policy is "just the text, ma'am." We do allow SOME sound effects where the script specifically calls for them (a knock, a dog bark, etc.), but not ambiance sounds.

Please do not use background sounds such as waterfalls, birdsong, etc., nor sounds for spirits or people entering or exiting the scene. Shepherd's pipe in the background, if CLEARLY from a PD source (please post the source to verify) will be OK if it's quiet and doesn't interfere with the vocals. If you are unwilling to comply with this, you may withdraw the project.

[bart]

I guess my current plan is to continue with sound effects but be extremely cautious of their providence and PD verifiability...

Tim

That might be your plan Tim, but it still isn't what LibriVox stands for. If you want to make audio books to your own standard, please do so. You can even put them yourself on Archive.org, where you will have an audience. But if you want to work with us, you’ll have to follow the general rules.

Maybe it helps if I tell you that professional audio book makers never use sound effects. Using these only stands in the way of the listener’s fantasy. People who listen to the books, expect the text, but want to fill in the rest with their own fantasy. If they want it filled in, they will hire the DVD.

I now hear you think: but knocking is allowed. Well to my opinion knocking should not be allowed either, but the majority here thinks that is within limits. OK. I’ll have to accept that, because I’m working with other people and I have to follow the general rule.

So, if you want to work for us, please abide to the rules!

Bart

[TimSC]

I see additional responses from bart and TriciaG since I was drafting this post. I will give them some consideration before responding. The rest of this forum post is in response to wildemoose.

wildemoose, you didn't address the option of me personally recording sound effects, which would seem to be legally bullet proof. Do I have to point out all the inconsistencies in the music rules page, line by line? I guess so...

"At the end of your recording, say the title, creator, and source of music or sound effects included in your recording."

"If you composed/performed the music or a sound effect yourself, at the end of the recording"

"The music or sound effect must be clearly in the public domain."

"PLEASE always keep a backup of your original recording, before the music / effect was added"

All these imply that sound effects may be used.

As for being unaware of curated PD archives, there are some linked from the music rules page (http://www.pdsounds.org/) which the music rules page mention as a potential source of recordings of environmental sounds, also the freesound.org project has CC0 samples, not to mention archive.org if the work is marked as PD.

You point out that you have no way to verify that a sound effect is PD. But according to the music rules, that is not your responsibility anyway. "It's the responsibility of the reader/performer to prove the public domain status of a piece."

Pointing out that sound recordings might not really be PD is just scare mongering. It is analogous to claim my submissions to librivox might not be PD, I mean really how can you tell? We get around this by assuming good faith, which is right and proper, and I don't see why this can't be extended to similar projects.

Also, your opinion on sound effects was just contradicted by the book MC in this thread. Sorry for getting slightly pedantic, it just appeals to my INTJ personality. Or perhaps something of Manfred rubbed off on me and I can't stand rules for no reason!

Tim

[wildemoose]

All of the "inconsistencies" you cited are in the Music Rules for Special Projects section of the wiki. If you look directly above that, you will see the words "Certain projects such as operas and song collections obviously specify music as part of the text, so special rules apply for the music used in those projects (see below)." If you look below the words "Music Rules for Special Projects" you will see the words "(such as operas or song collections)." This project is neither of those things, so those rules do not apply. As you'll see from the fact that two other admins have posted the same thing below my post, this is not my "opinion" on sound effects, but a Librivox rule that applies to all projects (other than special projects such as operas or song collections, as noted in the wiki.)

Bottom line: sound effects are not allowed. Music that is clearly PD is allowed if specifically called for by the text. Several people have given you several reasons for why this is the case, so I'm not sure calling it rules for no reason is accurate.

[TimSC]

There are many mentions of sound effects in the page. Just because they are in the section for music just proves my point that the page is not consistent.

Tim