Section 4 is spot PL OK.
I'm well aware that, as outstanding a resource as these sites are, they do have the unfortunate effect of flattening out everything that isn't 'standard' English. No Bradford, no Baton Rouge, just a vaguely unified 'acceptable' English, and certainly no Australian, New Zealand, Irish, South African or Canadian varieties to explore. If you want to ignore any of the pronunciation notes because your gut is telling you to do so, by all means do. I won't be offended!
I can't find it now, but I'm 95% certain I've heard this pronounced as in the OED example by an Australian wildlife rescuer and caregiver who, I assumed at the time, had had conversations with vets about sarcoptic mange (and now you know that I watch animal rescue videos on youtube!). If it's possible to reconstruct my thought processes, I probably thought mange and mangy stayed broadly consistent across continents - I wasn't taking into account local variations, though.
This is turning into a good example of overthinking a word when you record and you're not sure if your way is perfectly acceptable or if you've spent your entire life mispronouncing something because you've only seen it written. Or maybe that's just me!
You might be interested in this piece on an accent van going around Manchester and the surrounding areas and hyper-local differences between them:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/ya-cheekeh-monkeh-recording-manchester-accent-diversity
[COMPLETE] Footsteps of Fate by Louis Couperus -ans
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/fate_06_couperus_128kb.mp3 - 31:02 Ready for PL!
Interesting article from the Guardian! Thanks! I also followed up on their website - https://www.manchestervoices.org/ - mainly because I was impressed that they had funding for a van! That would never happen in Australia.
I grew up in south Manchester and my accent froze around 1973. When Liam Gallagher came along I recognized the accent immediately and it turned out his family lived a few streets away, though by that time my family had moved away. I also remember at school that kids who came from Oldham, Wigan and so on had much broader accents than the rest of us. Perhaps its the journalism but the idea of different words in different parts of town doesn't work well - we had a 'ginnel' between our house and the neighbour's and I remember using 'mardy' (but to mean cowardly, not moody), and you'll remember that we had 'skriking' from D.H. Lawrence. Maybe they'll have better luck with accents, which seems to be the point of the project.
Interesting article from the Guardian! Thanks! I also followed up on their website - https://www.manchestervoices.org/ - mainly because I was impressed that they had funding for a van! That would never happen in Australia.
I grew up in south Manchester and my accent froze around 1973. When Liam Gallagher came along I recognized the accent immediately and it turned out his family lived a few streets away, though by that time my family had moved away. I also remember at school that kids who came from Oldham, Wigan and so on had much broader accents than the rest of us. Perhaps its the journalism but the idea of different words in different parts of town doesn't work well - we had a 'ginnel' between our house and the neighbour's and I remember using 'mardy' (but to mean cowardly, not moody), and you'll remember that we had 'skriking' from D.H. Lawrence. Maybe they'll have better luck with accents, which seems to be the point of the project.
-
Newgatenovelist
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
Notes for section 6:
9.40, omission + check character voices with omitted line of dialogue
"I shall go myself and call at the house," Frank reiterated.
["At what house? Where?"]
"Why, at the Rhodes'—on Eva. Are you daft?"
26.15-26.19 – there are two different pronunciations depending on which definition is used
Oh, how could he get out of this slough? Kill himself?
https://www.lexico.com/definition/slough
Perhaps a van seemed the most practical way of doing it in such a focused geographical area, and the best way of ensuring that it could go to people (or even just waited in a town centre on a Saturday afternoon, I don't know their methods) rather than relying on people to come to them? The state of funding is dire everywhere, but surely in Australia some of the distances covered would cost as much in petrol as the van itself!
That is fascinating. I'm going to ask a very personal question, and you can ignore it if you'd rather: were you parents or carers from the same area as well? I am thinking of 'outside' influences on accents, and how you, Liam Gallagher and the surrounding streets might have all had very similar accents on those streets talking to neighbours, but that indoors people might shift their English accents depending on whether they're talking to their Irish mum, Polish grandmother, London aunt or whoever. Perhaps I'm projecting too much of my own ideas here, but I'm fascinated by and slightly envious of being able to pinpoint and retain an accent so rooted in a specific place.
I can't speak to their use of local vocabulary at all, though I hope whatever archive they create sees a lot of use. I think I would probably use 'mardy' to mean fratchy, cranky or moody, so that's a really interesting side note!
9.40, omission + check character voices with omitted line of dialogue
"I shall go myself and call at the house," Frank reiterated.
["At what house? Where?"]
"Why, at the Rhodes'—on Eva. Are you daft?"
26.15-26.19 – there are two different pronunciations depending on which definition is used
Oh, how could he get out of this slough? Kill himself?
https://www.lexico.com/definition/slough
Perhaps a van seemed the most practical way of doing it in such a focused geographical area, and the best way of ensuring that it could go to people (or even just waited in a town centre on a Saturday afternoon, I don't know their methods) rather than relying on people to come to them? The state of funding is dire everywhere, but surely in Australia some of the distances covered would cost as much in petrol as the van itself!
That is fascinating. I'm going to ask a very personal question, and you can ignore it if you'd rather: were you parents or carers from the same area as well? I am thinking of 'outside' influences on accents, and how you, Liam Gallagher and the surrounding streets might have all had very similar accents on those streets talking to neighbours, but that indoors people might shift their English accents depending on whether they're talking to their Irish mum, Polish grandmother, London aunt or whoever. Perhaps I'm projecting too much of my own ideas here, but I'm fascinated by and slightly envious of being able to pinpoint and retain an accent so rooted in a specific place.
I can't speak to their use of local vocabulary at all, though I hope whatever archive they create sees a lot of use. I think I would probably use 'mardy' to mean fratchy, cranky or moody, so that's a really interesting side note!
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/fate_07_couperus_128kb.mp3 - 30:03 Ready for PL!
Section 6 also corrected and uploaded.
Section 6 also corrected and uploaded.
My parents on both sides were from South Manchester as far back as they knew. But I think it is really a Manchester accent. It's all Greater Manchester now, but in those days places like Stockport and Oldham seemed quite remote, even though they were only a few miles from the city centre. People from the surrounding towns definitely had broader accents and I believe they were unique to each locality. I guess what they are talking about is whether these accents are now merging into something more generically urban.Newgatenovelist wrote: ↑October 13th, 2021, 7:44 am That is fascinating. I'm going to ask a very personal question, and you can ignore it if you'd rather: were you parents or carers from the same area as well? I am thinking of 'outside' influences on accents, and how you, Liam Gallagher and the surrounding streets might have all had very similar accents on those streets talking to neighbours, but that indoors people might shift their English accents depending on whether they're talking to their Irish mum, Polish grandmother, London aunt or whoever. Perhaps I'm projecting too much of my own ideas here, but I'm fascinated by and slightly envious of being able to pinpoint and retain an accent so rooted in a specific place.
-
Newgatenovelist
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
Section 6 is spot PL OK. Two notes for section 7:
0.51, something edited out of place?
But presently [Section Seven] there was the growing dread of that material burden, the unpleasant consciousness that there was no more money coming out from home...
21.43-21.46, repetition
"Yes," ["Yes,"] he nodded once more.
What you say is absolutely fascinating. Thank you for the window on to the now-all-one-big-Greater-Manchester-area accents!
0.51, something edited out of place?
But presently [Section Seven] there was the growing dread of that material burden, the unpleasant consciousness that there was no more money coming out from home...
21.43-21.46, repetition
"Yes," ["Yes,"] he nodded once more.
What you say is absolutely fascinating. Thank you for the window on to the now-all-one-big-Greater-Manchester-area accents!
Thanks for the PL notes! I am hoping to get this book finished this week - one last section to go. Meanwhile here comes Section 8
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/fate_08_couperus_128kb.mp3 - 28:17
For a book written more than a hundred years ago, things start to get pretty hairy around 20.00, and even more so when you think it is all over. So if you are bothered by graphic violence, please stop there!
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/fate_08_couperus_128kb.mp3 - 28:17
For a book written more than a hundred years ago, things start to get pretty hairy around 20.00, and even more so when you think it is all over. So if you are bothered by graphic violence, please stop there!
-
Newgatenovelist
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
No problem at all, and thanks for letting me know. I'm trying to press ahead with a solo, so I sympathise!
I forgot to mention before, but at the end of October and in early November I'll be out of office. By all means upload more files and/or launch the next project (Gaskell? Blue Review? Couperus? something completely unexpected?), just don't take it amiss if I seem to go quiet.
I forgot to mention before, but at the end of October and in early November I'll be out of office. By all means upload more files and/or launch the next project (Gaskell? Blue Review? Couperus? something completely unexpected?), just don't take it amiss if I seem to go quiet.
-
Newgatenovelist
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
One note for section 8 you might be able to change by editing within the file:
11.28, omission
"Because—[because]—I don't know. I cannot tell you. It is too vile."
There’s another stumbling repetition (as written, not your reading!) of because at 11.47-11.49 if you don’t want to re-record
Thank you for the warning! I was fine with this, but if you want to put some kind of note in the project summary that might let some listeners know before they dive in.
11.28, omission
"Because—[because]—I don't know. I cannot tell you. It is too vile."
There’s another stumbling repetition (as written, not your reading!) of because at 11.47-11.49 if you don’t want to re-record
Thank you for the warning! I was fine with this, but if you want to put some kind of note in the project summary that might let some listeners know before they dive in.
Congratulations to Anne on surviving the world's longest lockdown! Have a great weekend!
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/fate_09_couperus_128kb.mp3 - 36:29 Ready for PL and Sections 7 & 8 corrected and uploaded.
Aside from the level of violence being unusual for its time, I found it not so well motivated on the surface. There are lots of hints that Bertie is gay and it seems that Eva sees it, but Frank doesn't. Which makes me wonder whether he is also suggesting that Frank is gay, without knowing it, and that is what he is letting out in his anger?
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/fate_09_couperus_128kb.mp3 - 36:29 Ready for PL and Sections 7 & 8 corrected and uploaded.
Aside from the level of violence being unusual for its time, I found it not so well motivated on the surface. There are lots of hints that Bertie is gay and it seems that Eva sees it, but Frank doesn't. Which makes me wonder whether he is also suggesting that Frank is gay, without knowing it, and that is what he is letting out in his anger?
Have a good break! Next up will be something unexpected, a little light relief - The last issue of Blue Review is also recorded, so that will follow on.Newgatenovelist wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 2:02 pm I forgot to mention before, but at the end of October and in early November I'll be out of office. By all means upload more files and/or launch the next project (Gaskell? Blue Review? Couperus? something completely unexpected?), just don't take it amiss if I seem to go quiet.
-
Newgatenovelist
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
7 and 8 are spot PL OK. 9 is PL OK.
Let me know when the next project has launched so I can check in on the thread!
I guess I didn't see the level of violence as exceptional for a PD book. There are biblical precedents, and plays like Titus Andronicus or Tis Pity She's a Whore have a lot more mutilation, death and other forms of brutality. I've also just finished PLing 1984, which has more than one scene where the physical torture is secondary to the mental torture. Maybe I'm just desensitised, though I hope not! But from the beginning it was pretty clear that everything could only end pretty badly.
What you said about repressed sexuality also crossed my mind. Another, not necessarily incompatible, possibility is that Frank just isn't the good-natured fellow that he's made out to be at the start of the book. He's abusive and manipulative in his relationship with Eva, being so physically out of control that he scars her during the break up, and effectively saying 'but I've changed now, I'd never hurt you' later on. Maybe on a deeper level I'm struggling to reconcile what appear, at least in my immediate reaction to finishing listening, to be two different strands that haven't quite been fully brought together. Couperus hadn't written much when he wrote this, so that isn't meant as a criticism. It seemed to be trying fairly insistently to stress that everything was fated and all the reader had to do was to follow that out to its inevitable end, but also to want to take characters' psychology seriously. I'm not entirely convinced that both those ambitions were realised or successfully combined, but perhaps I'll feel more generously towards it when I've had time to reflect.
Let me know when the next project has launched so I can check in on the thread!
I guess I didn't see the level of violence as exceptional for a PD book. There are biblical precedents, and plays like Titus Andronicus or Tis Pity She's a Whore have a lot more mutilation, death and other forms of brutality. I've also just finished PLing 1984, which has more than one scene where the physical torture is secondary to the mental torture. Maybe I'm just desensitised, though I hope not! But from the beginning it was pretty clear that everything could only end pretty badly.
What you said about repressed sexuality also crossed my mind. Another, not necessarily incompatible, possibility is that Frank just isn't the good-natured fellow that he's made out to be at the start of the book. He's abusive and manipulative in his relationship with Eva, being so physically out of control that he scars her during the break up, and effectively saying 'but I've changed now, I'd never hurt you' later on. Maybe on a deeper level I'm struggling to reconcile what appear, at least in my immediate reaction to finishing listening, to be two different strands that haven't quite been fully brought together. Couperus hadn't written much when he wrote this, so that isn't meant as a criticism. It seemed to be trying fairly insistently to stress that everything was fated and all the reader had to do was to follow that out to its inevitable end, but also to want to take characters' psychology seriously. I'm not entirely convinced that both those ambitions were realised or successfully combined, but perhaps I'll feel more generously towards it when I've had time to reflect.
Thanks, Erin, I thought I had finished, but I've just realised there's a short introduction to be recorded! Next week...
As I was editing, I realised there was just one possibly worrying sentence - the one with the purplish liquid oozing from Bertie's nose, ears and mouth. But let's leave it at that - no warnings or some listeners may be disappointed
I agree with you about Frank. Eva's father's comment that he is violent but he has a good heart is outrageous from today's perspective. But I wonder if what he really means to say about fate is that is that, psychologically, people are what they are and they are not going to change too much. I must admit I didn't quite get the homosexuality theme the first time I read the book, as in those days it was all coded as male friendship, but the second time round I realized that the book is full of hints. That's why I read Bertie's final speech as saying that he was born gay and though he has struggled against it, there is nothing he can do to change. Anyway, from what I have read of his later books, there is lot's more psychology to come!
As I was editing, I realised there was just one possibly worrying sentence - the one with the purplish liquid oozing from Bertie's nose, ears and mouth. But let's leave it at that - no warnings or some listeners may be disappointed
I agree with you about Frank. Eva's father's comment that he is violent but he has a good heart is outrageous from today's perspective. But I wonder if what he really means to say about fate is that is that, psychologically, people are what they are and they are not going to change too much. I must admit I didn't quite get the homosexuality theme the first time I read the book, as in those days it was all coded as male friendship, but the second time round I realized that the book is full of hints. That's why I read Bertie's final speech as saying that he was born gay and though he has struggled against it, there is nothing he can do to change. Anyway, from what I have read of his later books, there is lot's more psychology to come!
-
annise
- LibriVox Admin Team
- Posts: 38680
- Joined: April 3rd, 2008, 3:55 am
- Location: Melbourne,Australia
It's an adult book - and there are many other books more violent - and then, of course, acceptable violence like the Inquisition. So no, I don't think it needs a warning.
I've recently been trying to explain why various Queens got their heads chopped off to 2 primary school age girls. And secretly wishing that online learning wasn't encouraging them to look things up on the internet
It's a great skill but one of them, in particular, went on and on about Anne Boylen and Kathryn Howard and was visibly upset. It is hard to explain they were just pawns in power games
Anne
I've recently been trying to explain why various Queens got their heads chopped off to 2 primary school age girls. And secretly wishing that online learning wasn't encouraging them to look things up on the internet
It's a great skill but one of them, in particular, went on and on about Anne Boylen and Kathryn Howard and was visibly upset. It is hard to explain they were just pawns in power gamesAnne
-
Newgatenovelist
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
Regarding the introduction - no worries. If you have time in the next few days well and good, and if not I'll PL in November.eggs4ears wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2021, 9:48 pm Thanks, Erin, I thought I had finished, but I've just realised there's a short introduction to be recorded! Next week...
As I was editing, I realised there was just one possibly worrying sentence - the one with the purplish liquid oozing from Bertie's nose, ears and mouth. But let's leave it at that - no warnings or some listeners may be disappointed
I agree with you about Frank. Eva's father's comment that he is violent but he has a good heart is outrageous from today's perspective. But I wonder if what he really means to say about fate is that is that, psychologically, people are what they are and they are not going to change too much. I must admit I didn't quite get the homosexuality theme the first time I read the book, as in those days it was all coded as male friendship, but the second time round I realized that the book is full of hints. That's why I read Bertie's final speech as saying that he was born gay and though he has struggled against it, there is nothing he can do to change. Anyway, from what I have read of his later books, there is lot's more psychology to come!
It's tough, because quite often modern readers are tempted to read gay subtexts into older books that - at least to my mind - are more about homosocial environments and cultures that might only seem credible now in a gay context. But in this case, I did wonder relatively early on if Couperus was hinting at that with Bertie, but I didn't and still don't know enough about Couperus and his works to know if that would be plausible. Never mind. We'll learn more about him in another project!
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/fate_00_couperus_128kb.mp3 - 16:56. Introduction ready for PL!
I'm sure you'll have something to say about some of those names
I agree with you on reading too much into older books, and if it were Lawrence I'd agree 100 per cent. But from what I can see online, he did write at least one book with explicitly gay theme and there's a kind of consensus that he was gay himself. Not that I know too much. I had never heard of Couperus until a year or so ago and I can't remember now what trail of breadcrumbs led me to him. He seems to be a major author in Dutch, but though several of his books were published in English, I wonder if they were read at all?
I'm sure you'll have something to say about some of those names
I agree with you on reading too much into older books, and if it were Lawrence I'd agree 100 per cent. But from what I can see online, he did write at least one book with explicitly gay theme and there's a kind of consensus that he was gay himself. Not that I know too much. I had never heard of Couperus until a year or so ago and I can't remember now what trail of breadcrumbs led me to him. He seems to be a major author in Dutch, but though several of his books were published in English, I wonder if they were read at all?
Hi Erin,
If you are good to DPL Fearsome Creatures of the Lumberwood when you are done here, they are awaiting you..... viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89811
Phil
If you are good to DPL Fearsome Creatures of the Lumberwood when you are done here, they are awaiting you..... viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89811
Phil