I hadn't seen that. That would be a challenge - reading from the original handwritten manuscript! The Dickens letters look quite tempting...Newgatenovelist wrote: ↑February 8th, 2021, 12:11 pm Have you seen that John Rylands have digitised some manuscripts, including Gaskell's, and including The Grey Woman?
https://rylandscollections.com/2021/02/08/placeholder-gaskell-and-dickens-mdc-launch/
[COMPLETE] Short Stories 1859-63 by Elizabeth Gaskell - ans
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Newgatenovelist
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The Grey Woman II and III are spot PL OK.
If you read from the handwritten letters you're a braver reader than I am! They're great, but recording might be a bridge too far!
You can't go wrong with Yorkshire. I'm looking forward to hearing it!
If you read from the handwritten letters you're a braver reader than I am! They're great, but recording might be a bridge too far!
You can't go wrong with Yorkshire. I'm looking forward to hearing it!
I've just finished recording the Ghost in the Garden Room this evening (later published as 'The Crooked Branch'). It would be interesting to know more about Mrs. G's relationship with ATYR. I mentioned the length of these pieces before and I've since read that Dickens was annoyed with her because she wouldn't stick to word limits. Now, the Ghost in the Garden Room was published in the Christmas edition, but it is barely a ghost story and it is definitely not Christmas reading!Newgatenovelist wrote: ↑February 10th, 2021, 1:52 pm You can't go wrong with Yorkshire. I'm looking forward to hearing it!
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Newgatenovelist
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I read 'The Crooked Branch' years ago but don't really remember it. I went on a Gaskell binge years ago and read through most of her novels and short stories at a gallop, with the result that now a lot of it is kinda fuzzy!
The ghost stories at Christmas tradition could be ghost stories but didn't necessarily have to be frightening, or to conform to a narrow 'boo!' type of ghost story that maybe we would now associate with Halloween. They could definitely have a more melancholy or pensive quality to them. In Gaskell's case, some of her stories reflect the darkness within families or the inhumanity of what people are willing to do to each other, and that sombre quality might fit a seasonal issue. In terms of HW and ATYR and Dickens's editorial line, this might shed some light:
“At the heart of his editing and writing for the Christmas numbers was a conviction that personal or autobiographical story-telling was morally and spiritually renewing; in reliving childhood memories the adult storyteller can regain a sense of the wonderful that makes moral regeneration possible in a world full of regret and loss. For many years Dickens tried to instil this vision in the minds of his contributors, with varying success, but his own contributions were rich in his memories of past events in his life”.
Ruth Glancy, “Introduction” to The Christmas Stories (London: Everyman, 1996), p. xxiv.
As far as Dickens's role as an editor, it kind of depends on who you talk to. Someone interested in Dickens might, quite understandably, focus on his role in mid-Victorian letters, and in that context potentially 'take sides' with him against some of the contributors who he complained about in letters. But especially with the rise of feminist scholarship, more attention has been given to Gaskell's (in this case) own artistic vision and her willingness not to be cowed when a famous editor tried to interfere with her work. The quote below is about 'The Old Nurse's Story', but it highlights some of these dynamics in the relationship: Dickens leaning on her to make changes, and Gaskell ultimately choosing to follow her own writerly instincts:
“…it strikes me (fresh from reading) that it would be very new and very awful, if, when the narrator goes down into the parlor on that last occasion, she took up her sleeping charge in her arms, and carried it down–if the child awoke when the noises began—if they all heard the noises—but only the child saw the spectral figures, except that they all see the phantom child. I think the real child crying out what it is she sees, and describing the phantom child as shewing it all to her as it were, and Miss Furnivall then falling palsy-stricken, would be a very terrific end”.
Charles Dickens, Letter to Elizabeth Gaskell, 6 November 1852.
On a more general note, in 2015 there was a special issue of the Gaskell Journal on the theme of the short story, including an article on 'Lois the Witch' and 'The Grey Woman'. I've not read it so I can't give you tips about which article to read first! If you don't have institutional access, JSTOR currently have a quite generous read-only allowance during COVID-19.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/e48501271?refreqid=fastly-default%3A469da53c80b8e099f6a5615c2466d9f8
I hope I haven't swamped you...
The ghost stories at Christmas tradition could be ghost stories but didn't necessarily have to be frightening, or to conform to a narrow 'boo!' type of ghost story that maybe we would now associate with Halloween. They could definitely have a more melancholy or pensive quality to them. In Gaskell's case, some of her stories reflect the darkness within families or the inhumanity of what people are willing to do to each other, and that sombre quality might fit a seasonal issue. In terms of HW and ATYR and Dickens's editorial line, this might shed some light:
“At the heart of his editing and writing for the Christmas numbers was a conviction that personal or autobiographical story-telling was morally and spiritually renewing; in reliving childhood memories the adult storyteller can regain a sense of the wonderful that makes moral regeneration possible in a world full of regret and loss. For many years Dickens tried to instil this vision in the minds of his contributors, with varying success, but his own contributions were rich in his memories of past events in his life”.
Ruth Glancy, “Introduction” to The Christmas Stories (London: Everyman, 1996), p. xxiv.
As far as Dickens's role as an editor, it kind of depends on who you talk to. Someone interested in Dickens might, quite understandably, focus on his role in mid-Victorian letters, and in that context potentially 'take sides' with him against some of the contributors who he complained about in letters. But especially with the rise of feminist scholarship, more attention has been given to Gaskell's (in this case) own artistic vision and her willingness not to be cowed when a famous editor tried to interfere with her work. The quote below is about 'The Old Nurse's Story', but it highlights some of these dynamics in the relationship: Dickens leaning on her to make changes, and Gaskell ultimately choosing to follow her own writerly instincts:
“…it strikes me (fresh from reading) that it would be very new and very awful, if, when the narrator goes down into the parlor on that last occasion, she took up her sleeping charge in her arms, and carried it down–if the child awoke when the noises began—if they all heard the noises—but only the child saw the spectral figures, except that they all see the phantom child. I think the real child crying out what it is she sees, and describing the phantom child as shewing it all to her as it were, and Miss Furnivall then falling palsy-stricken, would be a very terrific end”.
Charles Dickens, Letter to Elizabeth Gaskell, 6 November 1852.
On a more general note, in 2015 there was a special issue of the Gaskell Journal on the theme of the short story, including an article on 'Lois the Witch' and 'The Grey Woman'. I've not read it so I can't give you tips about which article to read first! If you don't have institutional access, JSTOR currently have a quite generous read-only allowance during COVID-19.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/e48501271?refreqid=fastly-default%3A469da53c80b8e099f6a5615c2466d9f8
I hope I haven't swamped you...
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/shortstories4_05_gaskell.mp3 - 64:50
Ready for PL! Just a note on the organization of this one. It comes to two hours and a bit and there are no breaks, so I have broken into two files rather arbitrarily. Actually, I've tried to introduce a bit of a cliffhanger, but not very effectively...
Will get back to your interesting comments on ghost/xmas stories later today!
Ready for PL! Just a note on the organization of this one. It comes to two hours and a bit and there are no breaks, so I have broken into two files rather arbitrarily. Actually, I've tried to introduce a bit of a cliffhanger, but not very effectively...
Will get back to your interesting comments on ghost/xmas stories later today!
Thanks for the link to the Gaskell Society special issues - I do have access to download and I'm looking forward to reading a couple of the papers - the introductory one as well as the one on Lois and the Grey Woman.
The Ghost in the Garden Room is another great story, but I think I prefer it as the Crooked Branch, which I believe comes without the first few lines of introduction. If you are trying to remember the ghost, don't try too hard - there isn't one! But it definitely reflects the darkness within families or the inhumanity of what people are willing to do to each other, as you say! Part two on its way soon...
The Ghost in the Garden Room is another great story, but I think I prefer it as the Crooked Branch, which I believe comes without the first few lines of introduction. If you are trying to remember the ghost, don't try too hard - there isn't one! But it definitely reflects the darkness within families or the inhumanity of what people are willing to do to each other, as you say! Part two on its way soon...
https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/shortstories4_05_gaskell.mp3 - 54:12
Part Two of the Ghost in the Garden Room ready for PL! Interested to know what you make of it.
If you are looking for where to start on the PL, here's a link. It's toward the bottom of the first column on p. 40.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1248
Part Two of the Ghost in the Garden Room ready for PL! Interested to know what you make of it.
If you are looking for where to start on the PL, here's a link. It's toward the bottom of the first column on p. 40.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1248
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Newgatenovelist
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Fantastic - thank you for that link. You're saving me from myself (and I appreciate it) because I wouldn't be surprised if I forget to make a note of where we left off between parts one and two...
I'm not finished with part one yet, but already looking forward to part two (downloading it as we speak). In the meantime, there was a short piece on JSTOR Daily this week about viewing landscapes and the changing fashion for the picturesque, and specifically the use of the Claude glass to as a way of seeing nature. It even mentions the Lake District's changing fortunes as a tourist destination! I don't suppose you have any more Lake District guidebooks from this period in your recording queue...?
https://daily.jstor.org/the-claude-glass-revolutionized-the-way-people-saw-landscapes/
I'm not finished with part one yet, but already looking forward to part two (downloading it as we speak). In the meantime, there was a short piece on JSTOR Daily this week about viewing landscapes and the changing fashion for the picturesque, and specifically the use of the Claude glass to as a way of seeing nature. It even mentions the Lake District's changing fortunes as a tourist destination! I don't suppose you have any more Lake District guidebooks from this period in your recording queue...?
https://daily.jstor.org/the-claude-glass-revolutionized-the-way-people-saw-landscapes/
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Newgatenovelist
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- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
One note for part one. You did build in a cliffhanger, never fear! Gaskell's very good at building up small, ostensibly trivial details, so it's hard to have an obvious big showy cliffhanger but this was a good place to break!
24.47, p 34 third para second column, omission
...murmuring to herself, “Pretty soft grey eyes! [Pretty soft grey eyes!”] until she would...
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1242
24.47, p 34 third para second column, omission
...murmuring to herself, “Pretty soft grey eyes! [Pretty soft grey eyes!”] until she would...
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1242
That's interesting, as is JSTOR Daily, which I haven't seen before. You've reminded me that I spent time looking up sources on the picturesque, including these two by William Gilpin, which double up as a guide to the Lakes.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924104095207/page/n37/mode/1up
https://archive.org/details/observationsonse02gilpiala/page/n7/mode/2up
Maybe I could put together a collection of extracts on the picturesque?
I haven't given up on Lakes Guides, but the problem is they get longer and longer as the 19th century goes on!
https://archive.org/details/cu31924104095207/page/n37/mode/1up
https://archive.org/details/observationsonse02gilpiala/page/n7/mode/2up
Maybe I could put together a collection of extracts on the picturesque?
I haven't given up on Lakes Guides, but the problem is they get longer and longer as the 19th century goes on!
Newgatenovelist wrote: ↑February 21st, 2021, 3:52 am Fantastic - thank you for that link. You're saving me from myself (and I appreciate it) because I wouldn't be surprised if I forget to make a note of where we left off between parts one and two...
I'm not finished with part one yet, but already looking forward to part two (downloading it as we speak). In the meantime, there was a short piece on JSTOR Daily this week about viewing landscapes and the changing fashion for the picturesque, and specifically the use of the Claude glass to as a way of seeing nature. It even mentions the Lake District's changing fortunes as a tourist destination! I don't suppose you have any more Lake District guidebooks from this period in your recording queue...?
https://daily.jstor.org/the-claude-glass-revolutionized-the-way-people-saw-landscapes/
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Newgatenovelist
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
Two notes for part two.
You're right, some of the guide books do get a bit long! They can be interesting, but that genre is a whole other rabbit hole to go down when looking for recording material...
27.46-27.50, p 44 first column third para
...should be broken open, and the fight [heard flight] renewed.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1252
48.47, p 47 first column bottom half-ish
[(His voice choked a little,] but he tried to make it steady...,
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1255
You're right, some of the guide books do get a bit long! They can be interesting, but that genre is a whole other rabbit hole to go down when looking for recording material...
27.46-27.50, p 44 first column third para
...should be broken open, and the fight [heard flight] renewed.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1252
48.47, p 47 first column bottom half-ish
[(His voice choked a little,] but he tried to make it steady...,
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1255
Section 5 & 6 corrected and uploaded. On Section 5, in addition to change below, I have corrected what I think are two typos in the original text. I forgot to ask your opinion earlier. Would you mind taking a look and letting me know if you think I am misunderstanding. In both cases, it seems to me that the correction is needed in order for the text to make sense.
On the same page as the correction below, in the first column, 11 lines down, there is the phrase '...the change in him which, when he returned; a change...' . I have changed this to ''...the change in him when he returned; a change...'
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1242
And then around the middle of the second column on the same page, I have changed 'content with bleaching the yarn' to 'not content with bleaching the yarn'.
Does that sound right to you?
..
On the same page as the correction below, in the first column, 11 lines down, there is the phrase '...the change in him which, when he returned; a change...' . I have changed this to ''...the change in him when he returned; a change...'
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1242
And then around the middle of the second column on the same page, I have changed 'content with bleaching the yarn' to 'not content with bleaching the yarn'.
Does that sound right to you?
..
Newgatenovelist wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2021, 8:08 am 24.47, p 34 third para second column, omission
...murmuring to herself, “Pretty soft grey eyes! [Pretty soft grey eyes!”] until she would...
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005756462&view=1up&seq=1242
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Newgatenovelist
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: February 17th, 2015, 7:22 am
Sections 5 and 6 are spot PL OK. Those changes do make sense - the sort of thing that might have been picked up when it was published later in book form (although I haven't compared it against any other scans on IA).
Great! I want to read accurately from ATYR as far as possible, but not to the point of confusing listeners!Newgatenovelist wrote: ↑February 25th, 2021, 3:55 am Sections 5 and 6 are spot PL OK. Those changes do make sense - the sort of thing that might have been picked up when it was published later in book form (although I haven't compared it against any other scans on IA).
Incidentally, I have read the paper on the short stories from the Gaskell Society Journal, which is interesting in many ways, but two that are relevant here. One is that it mentions a comment from Dickens that for him a short story was anything less than four installments - which means I have been pretty much following his definitions! The other is that it mentions a piece that was only attributed to Gaskell in 2015, which probably should be in this collection - Select Committee on French Songs
Vol 6, 145 448-454
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.a0007706294&view=1up&seq=454
Vol 6, 150, 561-568
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.a0007706294&view=1up&seq=567
I am thinking about it - there is a lot of French involved! But I guess this could be the first Gaskell collection to include it?
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Newgatenovelist
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If you'd like to include Select Committee on French Songs, go right ahead! As long as I don't have to record the French!
Nothing can ever be completely definitive, but probably the closest we'll have in this generation is the multivolume Works published in the noughties by Pickering & Chatto, edited by Joanne Shattock. Pickering & Chatto were taken over, so it may have been reprinted more recently, I don't know. I am not able to access it, but perhaps your library has it, or it's available through inter-library loan?
Nothing can ever be completely definitive, but probably the closest we'll have in this generation is the multivolume Works published in the noughties by Pickering & Chatto, edited by Joanne Shattock. Pickering & Chatto were taken over, so it may have been reprinted more recently, I don't know. I am not able to access it, but perhaps your library has it, or it's available through inter-library loan?