[COMPLETE] Six lectures on literature by C.H. Herford-ans

[ClaudiaSterngucker]

Dear Eggs4ears,

I'm very sorry...yes, I deleted my question again, because I feared I might have annoyed you by posting an unsolicited comment in your threat. I overheard you and Newgatenovelist discussing Middle English; and since I'm reading Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe in German, I'm very interested in this topic!

As far as I know, Middle English developed from Old English (which is also called Anglo Saxon) - did I get this correctly? I was delighted to learn that Old English derives from the German language and I ignorantly assumed that the special words and sentences Sir Walter Scott peppered Ivanhoe with, where in Old English. But I've learned that Old English was spoken from mid 5th century to the mid-12th century and that Middle English was spoken during late 11th century to late 15th century. Ivanhoe is set in 12th century England, so Old English must have already transitioned into Middle English by then (at least for the most part). Would you recommend to use a pronunciation guide for Middle English or Old English, in order to try to read Walter Scott's Anglo Saxon sentences correctly?

I've been consulting this website about pronunciation: http://people.umass.edu/sharris/in/gram/GrammarBook/Pronunciation.html

Are you both fluent in Middle English?

Lots of greetings from Switzerland

Claudia

P.S. I must apologise for my poor English.

[Newgatenovelist]

Hi Claudia!

As Phil has hinted he had an answer for you, I'll leave that to him! It's nice to see you around. I didn't know that you were reading Ivanhoe, but that's very exciting - it's always good to have lots of languages represented, and I think it's brilliant that you are recording this novel. You're doing a service to nineteenth-century authors - was it about a year ago you recorded some Bulwer-Lytton? I hope you find lots of wonderful books to keep you recording for many years to come.

Erin

[eggs4ears]

Hi Claudia,

I remember that Ivanhoe has Anglo-Saxon characters (Gurth, etc.), but I don't remember any Old English in the dialogues. Anyway, you are right about the period for Old English, which is Germanic and actually pronounced similarly to German. Words are pronounced pretty much how they are written and English speakers tend to get it wrong by pronouncing words as they are spoken in modern English (e.g., by not saying the -e at the end of words, as you would in German). Ivanhoe's characters are Anglo-Saxons, so I would say that even though it is the 12th century, they would speak Old English. And the link you sent is a good guide to pronunciation.

They say that Middle English starts around 1150 but there are very few texts until Chaucer comes along in the late 14th century. The main thing about Middle English is that it lost most of the word endings on nouns and verbs (which are still there there in German). But words are still pronounced pretty much as they are written, so from the point of view of reading a text aloud, it doesn't matter too much whether it is Old English or Middle English. Reading the words as if they were German will also work if you are in doubt!

Btw, I am not fluent in Old or Middle English. Gawain is in Middle English and I am just going to have a go!

Hope that helps,

Phil

Dear Eggs4ears,

I'm very sorry...yes, I deleted my question again, because I feared I might have annoyed you by posting an unsolicited comment in your threat. I overheard you and Newgatenovelist discussing Middle English; and since I'm reading Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe in German, I'm very interested in this topic!

As far as I know, Middle English developed from Old English (which is also called Anglo Saxon) - did I get this correctly? I was delighted to learn that Old English derives from the German language and I ignorantly assumed that the special words and sentences Sir Walter Scott peppered Ivanhoe with, where in Old English. But I've learned that Old English was spoken from mid 5th century to the mid-12th century and that Middle English was spoken during late 11th century to late 15th century. Ivanhoe is set in 12th century England, so Old English must have already transitioned into Middle English by then (at least for the most part). Would you recommend to use a pronunciation guide for Middle English or Old English, in order to try to read Walter Scott's Anglo Saxon sentences correctly?

I've been consulting this website about pronunciation: http://people.umass.edu/sharris/in/gram/GrammarBook/Pronunciation.html

Are you both fluent in Middle English?

Lots of greetings from Switzerland

Claudia

P.S. I must apologise for my poor English.

[ClaudiaSterngucker]

Dear Erin and Phil,

Thank you very much for your answers and your help! <3 I really enjoy reading Ivanhoe; and recording a book gives one the chance to dive much deeper into a story than 'just' reading it, doesn't it. I love the reader that recorded Ivanhoe in English, her name is Kristin LeMoine, she sounds so relaxed and at ease...and her reading feels natural, calm, effortless and vivid. I wish I had a little bit of this easiness, too! Instead, I have to constantly fight perfectionism and pernicketiness. Being like this doesn't help to sound natural and laid-back...

Yes, now that you mention it Phil, I think the original Ivanhoe text in English doesn't contain Old English words and sentences - or not as many as the German translation, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, Gurth, Cedric of Rutherford, his son Wilfred of Ivanhoe, Lady Rowena, Athelstane, and many more, are Anglo Saxon characters; the main story line revolves around the conflict between Normans and Saxons.

Oh, knowing that I can basically read the Old English words as if they were German helps a lot, thank you! I will also take care of the word endings on nouns and verbs and pronounce them as I do in German. I'm grateful for the insight you've given me!

I wish you and Erin a lot of fun recording Gawain...you already have a huge fan!

Claudia

[Newgatenovelist]

Thank you, Phil - I am a bit shaky on some of the details, so it's nice to have them explained.

Claudia, I'm sorry, I completely bypassed your other question. I have not used Middle English in a very long time, because there is very little demand for it in my daily life! But I did study it with a literature tutor who believed that it should be read in the original, and to drive the point home, memorising and reciting also formed part of the studies. That really helped with trying to understand the rhythms, and I'm grateful that, even if it was a while ago, I've been exposed to the Middle English poetry that isn't 'in translation'. Gawain is going to be good for me, too, getting into it again!
Erin

[ClaudiaSterngucker]

Dear Erin,

Wow, you even studied Middle English - that's sooooo cool! I always completely geek out when I hear such things! Oh, I'm sure you can still recite these Middle English poems beautifully (and without having a wee dram intus ). I love the way you recite poems...so passionately and full of emotions and deep understanding.

I think that you'll get into it again instantly, as you studied Middle English so profoundly that it firmly sticks in your long term memory and just waits for a chance to surface one more! Have you been exposed to Middle English poetry for which no translation exists? Did I understand that correctly? These poems must have a lot of magic...they must still convey a lot of the spirit of this adventurous time in the past.

Off to work the night shift.

Claudia

[annise]

I don't think I could still do it , but for final year English literature at school we had to be able to read aloud the Canterbury Tales in Chaucer's language, I'm looking forward to listening to your next project.

anne

[Newgatenovelist]

This has sparked a very interesting side discussion of Middle English! It can be quite nice when that happens.

Thank you, Claudia - that's very kind of you to say. As for what I read, I didn't write that very clearly! No, it was all stuff that is available in translation. I just had a tutor who wanted to stick purely to the original Middle English, so that was that. It was quite an adventure.

I hope your night shift hasn't left you too fatigued. Late shifts are bad enough!

Erin

[eggs4ears]

Lecture 6 uploaded and ready for PL

https://librivox.org/uploads/annise/lectures_06_herford.mp3 - 41:47

You'll see that I have left out some of the bibliographic notes. Also, there is the Norwegian name of a play by Ibsen that I have read in English. I have no idea how to say it in Norwegian

[Newgatenovelist]

Ha! For those I usually try Forvo. Most of the time, I still have to remind myself that it's better to have a badly pronounced version than none at all! Although if you had gone for the Norwegian I would have happily gone along with it, since my Norwegian is on a part with my Welsh, and you've just done a good job with Dyfed!

Some notes for lecture 6:

intro- says lecture 5

10.00-10.03, p. 6 mid-paragraph, first paragraph, self-correction
...If he did not view women with the sly- If he did not view women with the shy chivalry…

11.49, bottom third of p. 6
extra version of Titania’s name/variant pronunciation bunged in at end of list of characters’ names (Oxford suggests this one is preferable, for whatever that’s worth – see second, unrecorded, listing)
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/titania

21.12-21.16, mid-paragraph, second paragraph p. 9
…Gisippo ‘generously’ [heard ‘generally’] resigns to him all but the name of husband.

28.10-28.13, concluding line of second paragraph, p. 11, repetition
...human grossness and fairy- and fairy fantasticality…

35.17-35.19, penultimate line p. 13, stumble on Troilus’s name
Neither Troilus nor Cressida…

37.38-37.42, second half of second paragraph, p. 14
...nor glorifies him, like the author [heard order] of the Restoration drama…

39.23-39.25, p. 15, two lines before indented quotation, misquote with extra word
‘Husband, I [will] come’

39.30-39.33, p. 15, first line of indented quotation, omission
With [the] swift motion of all elements

40.19-40.23, p. 15, first half of final paragraph
...’all that moves below the gliding [heard gilding] stars…

outro- needs full disclaimer

[eggs4ears]

Thanks Erin! What a lot of mistakes!

All corrected and I will upload with the next new file for PL.

But do you mean that I read 'Lecture 5' at the beginning of the file (I hear Lecture 6), or is it somewhere else?

[Newgatenovelist]

Boy, I dunno. Listening to it today it's clearly 'lecture 6', so I have no idea what I was hearing last night. Sorry about that! Carry on, and I'll try to sort my ears out in the meantime!

[eggs4ears]

Part 6 corrected and ready for spot PL!

I am planning to finish this one up before moving on to other things. I've read Lucretius and I'm half way through Is there a poetic view of the world. I am still not sure what to make of C.H. Herford, but looking at the dates of some of the lectures, I find it quite amazing that we are in the middle of the biggest war in history, and literary criticism seems to have just carried on regardless!

[annise]

Sort of off topic, but in hunting for cover ideas I came across this http://www.staffnet.manchester.ac.uk/news/display/?id=15811. Not for him in particular but one can't help wondering how much all the 18-24 year olds killed in WWI could have contributed if they hadn't been killed or permanently damaged.

Anne

[Newgatenovelist]

Section 06 is spot PL OK!

I'm trying to tie off loose ends, too, though in my case futile attempt or forlorn hope is probably more the order of the day. I'm looking forward to hearing your other two lectures, though! And yeah, lit crit does kind of go along at its own pace in its own little world sometimes.