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Post Posted:: August 12th, 2016, 7:56 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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I have uploaded the first part of Book 2. It's about 55 minutes long. The second part will be a bit shorter, but we will need a revised MW to accommodate them. Books 9 1nd 10 are also very long and will have to be divided in half.

Tom


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Post Posted:: August 12th, 2016, 8:03 pm 
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Tom, you can change your Magic Window yourself to suit your needs.
You don't need to wait for me to do that; besides, I don't know what you want anyway :wink:

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Ava.

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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 12:54 am 
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chymocles wrote:
I have uploaded the first part of Book 2. It's about 55 minutes long. The second part will be a bit shorter, but we will need a revised MW to accommodate them. Books 9 1nd 10 are also very long and will have to be divided in half.
Tom


you need to post the link of the recording either here or in the MW, otherwise I don't know what to download ;)

glad to see there is progress. What about the first chapter ? Is it the final version now or do you want me to wait for you to tinker with the volumes still ? That's what I was waiting for so far before marking it PL ok.

Sonia


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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 3:18 am 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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Oh, yes, of course. Here is the link: https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_02a_milton_128kb.mp3

I guess you can omit the Chapter 0. Unless I become extra-industrious, I don't think I'll read the introduction. However, I will need 2a, 2b, 9a, 9b, 10a, 10b, and 12.

Thanks, Sonia.

Tom


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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 3:25 am 
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chymocles wrote:
I guess you can omit the Chapter 0. Unless I become extra-industrious, I don't think I'll read the introduction.


to be honest, I am glad about that LOL I am not too keen on introductions either ;)

Quote:
However, I will need 2a, 2b, 9a, 9b, 10a, 10b, and 12.


I think I can manage to do that, let's see...

Sonia


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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 3:32 am 
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Ok check the MW whether you like it like this. I am unable to delete sections, but I guess the ever helpful Ava can do that. :)

Also the sections will never be named with 2a and 2b, but they will be 2 and 3. Maybe you could also name you file like this, so that there is no confusion. I wrote in the title that it's part one and part two, so the listeners will know what they are looking for.

Sonia


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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 7:33 am 

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Will it be okay if I rename the file once you have critiqued it?

Tom


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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 7:37 am 
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Yes, that's fine.

I can also rename the file on the uploader if there is nothing to fix. But, glancing at your conversations here, I don't think that's likely :wink: (No offense... :oops: )

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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 12:13 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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No, don't bother. I'll be uploading it again, but I do expect there to be fewer problems with this installment. My goal is to reduce Sonia's work load as much as possible. I haven't been on this side of the red pen for a few years now, and it's a lot of fun building my powers of self-criticism. I have always taken a perverse pleasure in proofreading, and now I am adding to that new discoveries about grammar; I'm having a ball.

Tom


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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 2:19 pm 
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chymocles wrote:
I haven't been on this side of the red pen for a few years now, and it's a lot of fun building my powers of self-criticism. I have always taken a perverse pleasure in proofreading, and now I am adding to that new discoveries about grammar; I'm having a ball.


I'm really glad that you like our discussions and my "red pen" as you say ;) Many other would probably already have run away screaming (or sacked me as DPL).

Well, here goes another round:

I already started listening to your second chapter, but it's getting late now and I notice my concentration slipping, so I will not continue tonight. I will however give you my first notes already, because I can imagine you are waiting for feedback. The rest will come tomorrow then.

> At the intro I had a bit of a struggle hearing it, even with my computer cranked up to the max but luckily the speeches later are well loud again and very dramatic.

I love your reading in character, each one more devious and sneaky than the other. I highly enjoy listening to you. Really: your reading, your diction and expressiveness is perfect, so the only things I can correct are some wrong pronunciations or missing words:

the following parts struck me as either odd or plainly wrong:

> in the disclaimer you forgot to mention "traduit(e) par François-René Vicomte de Chateaubriand" or did you only want to say that in the very first section ?

> maybe Livre 2 / Première partie would be a bit better than Partie 1, but it's up to you. I can change it in the MW

> at 0:20: "Satan examine" - no liaison there, it sounds like "Satan n'examine". I notice you often "liaise" nasal sounds, which is not that often done usually, as a nasal sound does not really count as a real consonant. Here you can read about it: http://research.jyu.fi/phonfr/94.html
:hmm: now I am wondering whether I did not notice it in the first chapter or whether there were not many nasal words...here there are some following later on

> at 0:43: "un autre monde" - you say "une"

> at 3:00: "opprimés et tombés" - better no liaison

> at 3:10: "paraîtront" - you only say "raîtront"

> at 15:40: "poursuivis et frappés" - liaison sounds to my ear a bit strange

> at 18:44: "sont hardis" - no liaison, because "hardi" has "h aspiré" like "héros"

> at 21:19: "le premier but" - the 't' at the end of "but" must be read as well

> at 24:29: "point non plus" - I hear a very faint 's' at "plus", but really in this case it would be mute (as I said yesterday in our discussion on the previous page)

> at 26:38: "Satan excepté": again no nasal liaison

> at 29:03: "gouvernera": you probably say it correctly, but it sounds a bit suffocated. I think it's the way you say the "e" in the syllable "-ver-" in the middle. It should be a well-pronounced e-sound like in the English word "to err" and yours sounds more "feeble" like in "to learn". Not sure if I explained this well... (at 29:08 you say the word correctly, I just noticed). This is very picky though, on second thoughts, you probably don't have to correct this

> at 29:17: "paix ou de guerre": I would not make liaison with "paix"

> at 31:31: "créatures habitent": liaison sounds strange here too

> at 32:25: "création entière": nasal again

> at 35:04: "incursion opportune": and again

> at 35:48: "d'un pas errant": I don't pretend to know the rule here, but this liaison strikes me as wrong. I wonder if maybe the word "pas" meaning "step" is never liaised. I know that I would always make a break between pas/step and the next word. Whereas the word pas/not I would make liaison. But this is just my feeling here, not sure if it's a rule.

> at 35:54: "et à travers..." - you omitted "et" (if you want it word perfect)

> at 37:51: "haut mérite" - you say "haute"

> at 38:19: "prison est" - again nasal liaison

> at 38:50: "destruction entière" - here again nasal

> at 39:04: "région inconnue" - again nasal

> at 39:50: "autant plus" - means "more" so the 's' is spoken

> at 39:55: "plus honoré" - slight liaison "pluzonoré"

here I stopped in the middle of page 34 at 40:00 minutes (just for me as a reminder)

Sonia


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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 5:32 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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I am at a picnic in the rain waiting for dusk so we can watch a movie outdoors. Can you imagine!? But I am excited by your comments and can scarcely wait to get back to the Operating Room to continue the surgical procedure. No liaisons with nasals! (The iPhone thinks I want to write "masala.") That will cut down on my work a bit when I get to the next part.

Well, the movie screen has collapsed. Back to the party.

Thanks, Sonia. More later.

Tom


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Post Posted:: August 13th, 2016, 8:29 pm 

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I see that I have fallen into a bad habit because of my desire to do a soutenu reading: these nasal liaisons are not nearly as easy to avoid as I expected. They are so very easy to make. Nevertheless, I have made progress.

Of all your notes, this is my favorite so far:
Quote:
I don't pretend to know the rule here, but this liaison strikes me as wrong. I wonder if maybe the word "pas" meaning "step" is never liaised. I know that I would always make a break between pas/step and the next word. Whereas the word pas/not I would make liaison. But this is just my feeling here, not sure if it's a rule.

I will gladly follow your lead, but I find it helpful to know when you are obeying a habit and when you are conscious of a rule. It is not easy to know this about one's own speech, let alone about someone else's.

However, I think you may have misinterpreted the grammatical structure of the passage at 39:50, about which you say, "autant plus' - means 'more' so the 's' is spoken." Actually, although it does mean "more," it is an adverb modifying the following adjective: "d'autant plus due." In that case it's just like "plus difficile" or "plus court" and should be /ply/, no? I think you just didn't notice the "due" after the "plus." I want to do this right, so I'll do as you advise, but first I want to make sure you weren't nodding.

Tom


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Post Posted:: August 14th, 2016, 4:07 am 
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Hi again Tom

Quote:
I am at a picnic in the rain waiting for dusk so we can watch a movie outdoors. Can you imagine!? [...] Well, the movie screen has collapsed. Back to the party.

do you know how surrealistic this setting sounds to me ? :|
well, did you manage to see the movie after all ?

Quote:
I will gladly follow your lead, but I find it helpful to know when you are obeying a habit and when you are conscious of a rule. It is not easy to know this about one's own speech, let alone about someone else's.

I know I'm sorry. Many things I simply say by sheer practice and intuition, without really thinking about any rules. That's why I can only tell you, it does sound odd to me, simply because nobody around me here would say it like that. But I'm not sure if it is actually wrong.

Quote:
However, I think you may have misinterpreted the grammatical structure of the passage at 39:50, about which you say, "autant plus' - means 'more' so the 's' is spoken." Actually, although it does mean "more," it is an adverb modifying the following adjective: "d'autant plus due." In that case it's just like "plus difficile" or "plus court" and should be /ply/, no? I think you just didn't notice the "due" after the "plus." I want to do this right, so I'll do as you advise, but first I want to make sure you weren't nodding.

I had to recheck this sentence once again to understand what you mean. You are correct, I gave it another interpretation yesterday evening where the 's' would be correct. I guess I can blame it on the late hour and it was probably good that I made a break then. Sorry for the oversight. :(

So here is the rest of the notes, after a good night's sleep.

> at 40:58: "enhardis" - again no liaison before hardi, it's en-'ardi (like en-haut)
> at 43:37: "l'inimi" - you say: l'imitié"
> at 44:04: "stygien ainsi" - nasal, no liaison
> at 45:18: "démon à" - nasal again
> at 47:58: "à l'écart" - you say "à l'acart"
> at 49:05: "en escadrons et en grosses troupes" - you say "ou" instead of "et" (trivial though, if not word perfect)
> at 49:51: "lamentations entendues" - you say "étendues"
> at 50:35: "battu de tempêtes" - you say "des" (trivial)
> at 50:48: "ancien édifice" - nasal again
> at 51:12: "froid accomplit" - liaison sounds odd to me, wouldn't do it
> at 51:50: "un bac" - I'm not sure, because it's not very loud, but I think you said "ba" but it should be "bak"
> at 51:54: "en allant et venant": you said "en allant et en venant". This is more an "expression fixe", where the second "en" is superfluous (like "un va et vient")
> at 52:21: "Méduse" - you say Médouse
> at 52:26: "le gué" - only pronounced "", well you don't say the 'u', like in "guérir" for example
> at 53:23: "univers où" - wouldn't liaise here, but make a little pause
> at the end disclaimer, if you say "première partie" at the beginning, you should also change it at the end (optional)

Sonia


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Post Posted:: August 14th, 2016, 12:48 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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Yes, we sent indoors to watch it. Cramped but cozy.

Quote:
I know I'm sorry. Many things I simply say by sheer practice and intuition, without really thinking about any rules. That's why I can only tell you, it does sound odd to me, simply because nobody around me here would say it like that. But I'm not sure if it is actually wrong.

No apology needed; in fact, it was your very candor about what made you question the pronunciation that I was admiring.

As for the "plus" issue, I think I know how you interpreted it to begin with, as if "due" modified "plus" rather than the other way around. I saw it the other way because I know the English version almost by heart. That is, in fact, why I decided to do this project. Kids sometimes learn to read by memorizing a story that has been read to them often. They then pick up the book and pretend to read, and at some point the symbols they see become associated with the words they are saying. Hence, I hope that my vocabulary and my familiarity with grammatical constructions will grow as I mouthe the French for words I already hold in memory.

My computer has been crashing a lot, so I must wait a while to get to the corrections.

Thanks for your rapid response.

Tom


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Post Posted:: August 14th, 2016, 6:02 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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I have uploaded the first part of Book 2: [url]
https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_02_milton_128kb.mp3[/url]

I can't get into the MW. Do I need a different username and password?

Tom


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