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Post Posted:: August 17th, 2017, 12:56 am 
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chymocles wrote:
Clearly it is simply a typographical error in the original (line 12 on p. 238). I will report it to the Samizdat editor, who is using our text as his copytext. The Forvo webmaster will be nonplussed over my request for a pronunciation. Oh, well . . .

oh you can also make requests there ? I did not know that.

BTW you did not yet pick up my private message....do you have trouble accessing it ? :hmm:

Sonia


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Post Posted:: August 17th, 2017, 12:21 pm 

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I found it just now. I will go back to it and reply.

Tom


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Post Posted:: September 5th, 2017, 9:02 am 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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I've uploaded Book 10, part 2: https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_16_milton_128kb.mp3. There were quite a few textual difficulties, and as you know, I am in correspondence with the editor of the easy-to-use Samizdat edition of the poem in Canada [http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/arts/lit/Paradis_perdu.pdf], so I have written out my arguments for him. I will include below the ones that bear upon our copy text, the Gallica edition (I am not certain that they are all in chronological order):

    Quote:
    Tu les as acceptées. Adam;

    Although this is how the Gallica text reads, the Google Books edition uses a comma for the period, which makes sense.

    Quote:
    : que ceci apaisé mes doutes, puisque la portée humaine ne peut savoir rien au delà.

    Read “apaise.” Unless this change is made, the clause has no verb. The Google Books edition reads “apaise.”

    Quote:
    Gomment le Très-Haut exercerait-il une colère sans fin sur l’homme que la mort doit finir?

    Read “Comment.”

    Quote:
    La mort et moi nous sommes éter- nels et incorporés ensemble, Je n’ai pas ma part seul

    Although this is how the Gallica text reads, a period is required.

    Quote:
    sur moi, sur moi seul comme la source et l’origine de toute corruption, tout le blâme dûment re-tombé,: puisse aussi sur moi retomber toute la colère!

    I know that the Gallica text reads thus, but the Google Books edition follows the English original, making “retombe” a present-tense verb: “On mee, mee onely, as the sourse and spring / Of all corruption, all the blame lights due. . . .” It may also be worth noting that the comma before the colon at just this point is also an error, possibly part of the same error.

    Quote:
    ou celle qui désirera le plus, il l’obtiendra rarement de sa perversité

    Unless we add “il” before “désirera” the verb will have no subject. It has one in the English original, several lines earlier, but in the translation a semicolon seals off that part of the sentence from this part. That is probably why the Google Books edition has added the pronoun I am recommending. I have no confidence that Chateaubriand intended a comma, but the sentence is rather hard to read without it. I would not belabor this point were it not for the plethora of pronouns that the French language has forced the translator to add just before the semicolon (“mais il l’aura telle que la lui amènera quelque infortune”), which is as wordy as the original is lean and streamlined.

I just thought I ought to forestall at least some of your comments on this reading. There were quite a few other problems with the Samizdat text, mostly scanning errors that do not show up in the Gallica text when read by human eyes, but I have spared you those. I really like the Samizdat text and use it for proof-listening because it is easily searchable, but the Gallica text is, of course, the one to which the reading is officially tied. It is also, incidentally, the one the Samizdat editor uses as his copy text. Therefore, if you think that any of these editorial "corrections" are inadmissible, I will change the reading to correspond to the text even though it seems erroneous to me.


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Post Posted:: September 5th, 2017, 1:47 pm 

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One more thing: I hope you will watch out for the words "brouillard" and "bruyant." They appear fairly close to each other, and I am not satisfied that my pronunciation of the vowels is satisfactory.

Tom


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Post Posted:: September 6th, 2017, 4:17 am 
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ah, a new chapter is ready. :9: Well done Tom, although this part was hard to swallow, Adam's tirade is so full of sexism :evil: I never remembered it was that awful !

I did not find many errors, all in all it was perfectly narrated. Here only a few notes:

> at 0:01, 0:18 and 42:40: "Livre Dix" - you say "di", but the number especially when it stands alone is pronounced "diss"

> at 3:18: "ces furies dévastatrices": you say "dévas-trices" instead of "dévas-ta-trices"

> at 6:40: "quelles seraient celles d'entre elles": you say "eux"

> at 11:37: "tout ce que je mange, ou bois" - you forgot "ce"

> at 20:37: "tout le blâme dûment retom": I see what you mean in your note and you don't have to correct it, but I just wanted to note that "retombé" is not grammatically wrong in this sentence as it has more of an adjectival function here, or a past tense, without mentioning the verb "être", which is ok. But if yours is closer to the original, it's probably ok to leave it as well. There's not much of a difference in nuance anyway and it could well be a typo.

> at 34:56: "choisissons le plus court" - I hear "la"

that's all :)

We're almost at the end !!!! 3 more sections. Or do you think section 12 will be divided in two parts again ?

Sonia


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Post Posted:: September 6th, 2017, 6:35 am 

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Thanks, Sonia, for the quick response. I've already begun Book 11, and yes, it may be necessary to split another book, but I'm not sure. My tongue seems to work faster now that I have had so much practice

I did, though, want to say a word or two about the sexism issue. There is no question but that Adam is brutal in his abuse of Eve, but that need not offend you. Notice that Eve, thinking like the Son of God, offers to intercede for him and take all the blame, and then he says that he would do so if it had any chance of working. If he had had the least presence of mind he might have offered to do that in the beginning; who knows how that would have changed the outcome? He never even gave a thought to any third course of action but just gobbled the fruit like a fool. The portrait of him that Milton paints is vile, and when God judges them he scolds Eve for about two lines and then turns to Adam and gives him a lengthy browbeating. There is no question where the poet's sympathies lie. A feminist can, if she chooses, read this book knowing that she and the author are on the same side.

I'll get to work on the corrections now.

Tom


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Post Posted:: September 6th, 2017, 7:59 am 

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I've made the corrections: https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_16_milton_128kb.mp3

Quote:
at 20:37: "tout le blâme dûment retombé": I see what you mean in your note and you don't have to correct it, but I just wanted to note that "retombé" is not grammatically wrong in this sentence as it has more of an adjectival function here, or a past tense, without mentioning the verb "être", which is ok. But if yours is closer to the original, it's probably ok to leave it as well. There's not much of a difference in nuance anyway and it could well be a typo.

I did leave this alone, merely because adding another syllable is always hard to do without calling attention to it (the "dévastatrices" was especially difficult because of the echo). However, I will copy your observation into the list of editorial suggestions I am making for the Samizdat editor. He has asked me to send them all at once instead of piecemeal, but when he has sent me his reply I will let you know how he decides.

Thanks,

Tom


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Post Posted:: September 7th, 2017, 1:02 am 
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chymocles wrote:
I've made the corrections: https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_16_milton_128kb.mp3
(the "dévastatrices" was especially difficult because of the echo).

I think you managed it exceedingly well, I wouldn't hear a difference in sound :thumbs:

Livre 10 now PL ok.

Sonia


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Post Posted:: September 20th, 2017, 3:40 am 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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HI, the next installment is up: https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_17_milton_128kb.mp3. Let me take out the few seconds of noise and re-upload before you listen, though.

Tom


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Post Posted:: September 20th, 2017, 8:52 am 

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The extra seconds are deleted, so your count will be accurate.

https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_17_milton_128kb.mp3

Tom


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Post Posted:: September 20th, 2017, 12:01 pm 
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chymocles wrote:
The extra seconds are deleted, so your count will be accurate.
https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_17_milton_128kb.mp3
Tom

ah the saga continues...excellent read again, Tom :thumbs: I always enjoy the speech of God because of the voice effect you're doing LOL

I only found very few errors this time:

> at 1:05: p. 243: "Adam s'excuse mais se soumet - you say "le"

> at 12:17: p. 247: "que tout le bien dont nous jouissons - you say "que"

> at 15:36: p. 248: par l'oiseau, la brute et l'air - you say "de", but in fact this is an enumeration of those three that later appear

> at 19:46: p. 249: mais il est solennel et sublime - this should be pronounced /so-la-nel/. I don't know why the 'e' is pronounced 'a' here, but it's true

> at 31:31: p. 253: par une raison différente - I think I hear "pour"

> at 33:53: p. 254: le nerf optique - the 'f' in "nerf" is never pronounced, so no liaison here, simply /ner optique/

The rest perfect as always :thumbs:

Sonia


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Post Posted:: September 20th, 2017, 7:02 pm 

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All corrected, I hope: https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_17_milton_128kb.mp3. I was very interested to notice that in a couple of cases I made exactly the same error in both of my readings. Clearly one sees what one expects to see—and keeps on seeing it. I was aware that my students did this, making corrections while reading aloud and never noticing the errors that they were correcting. I did not know that I did it myself.

Thanks for the careful listening.

Another question: How do you like this as part of the text for the cover of the finished product? (I have claimed the task of creating the cover.)

    Librivox
    Livres audio gratuits en ligne

    présente

    Le Paradis perdu
    de John Milton
    traduit par François-René de Chateaubriand

    Œuvre dans le domaine public
    Enregistré par Thomas Copeland

And what would you do with this: "Visit our site to view the catalog of available books, to download audio files, or to learn more about volunteering"? I want to keep it as brief as possible.

Tom


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Post Posted:: September 21st, 2017, 9:56 am 
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chymocles wrote:
I was very interested to notice that in a couple of cases I made exactly the same error in both of my readings.

:? did I miss some errors ?

All PL ok now :) and perfectly edited.

Quote:
Librivox
Livres audio gratuits en ligne

présente

Le Paradis perdu
de John Milton
traduit par François-René de Chateaubriand

Œuvre dans le domaine public
Enregistré par Thomas Copeland

excellent, this says it all. No errrors as far as I can see. So you want to do the cover yourself ?

Quote:
And what would you do with this: "Visit our site to view the catalog of available books, to download audio files, or to learn more about volunteering"? I want to keep it as brief as possible.

you want to write all this on the cover ? Isn't that a bit much ? :hmm: Well, very short would be: Pour plus d'info, rendez-vous sur librivox.org". I think this implies that there will be more audiobooks and that one can find out about volunteering.

Sonia


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Post Posted:: September 21st, 2017, 10:12 am 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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Thanks for the translation help. I'm just following the templates' suggestions. I may not use it all, but there are two pages for most of the templates.

And you didn't miss anything. When I referred to the same mistake in "both my readings" I meant the two readings of this part of the poem, which I conflated into one. Usually I make stupid mistakes in one reading or the other, and then I have a second one to fall back on, but this time I said "brute de l'air" and "pour une cause différente" in both of them.

I'm slow to begin the next part. C. S. Lewis calls it "an untransmuted lump of futurity," and so it has always seemed to me.

Tom


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Post Posted:: October 10th, 2017, 2:54 pm 

Joined: March 23rd, 2011, 6:30 am
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The second part of Book 11 is ready: https://librivox.org/uploads/availle/paradisperdu_18_milton_128kb.mp3. Michael is a less patient teacher than Raphael, but he does try to be forbearing when Adam is merely dense. What he will not tolerate, though, is any anti-feminist cracks!

Enjoy.

Tom


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