The Early History of Rome by Livy

[niobium]

https://archive.org/details/titusliviussrom00gordgoog/page/n580/mode/2up

This link should contain all the full set of the books that have survived all in one volume. it certainly would be nice to see one of the roman history buffs take up the challenge

[Leni]

Just poiting out we already have Books 1 and 2 in the catalog: https://librivox.org/from-the-foundation-of-the-city-by-titus-livius/

[niobium]

like all things that rely on volunteers, the quality varies. until someone pulls up their chair to a microphone and starts again, this history book will be in the great unfinished pile for years to come.

[annise]

By "starts again" do you mean at volume 1 or on the unread books ? I hope the second
In my many years of volunteering in various groups the best advice I had was that I should answer "what a good idea, how are you going to do it".
Maybe there is no one very interested in recording this in our membership, maybe someone is planning to start it when they finish the project they are doing at the moment. Maybe someone will register in 1 second whose sole aim in life is to record them. All of these are possible.

Anne

[ColleenMc]

I had very recently searched Librivox from the search box on the front page for "Livy" and got no results so I was under the impression that there was no Livy on Librivox yet. I wasn't aware that Livy had another name (Titus Livius) under which the currently completed Livy work is cataloged. Is it possible to add "Livy" to the entry as a searchable term or cross reference? I'm probably not the only one who didn't know Livy by any other name. The Livy work also doesn't come up if you search "history of Rome" or "Roman history" so you would have to know his proper name and this edition's title to find that recording.

Good to know that there is some Livy out there, though, thank you!

Colleen

[Leni]

I had very recently searched Librivox from the search box on the front page for "Livy" and got no results so I was under the impression that there was no Livy on Librivox yet. I wasn't aware that Livy had another name (Titus Livius) under which the currently completed Livy work is cataloged. Is it possible to add "Livy" to the entry as a searchable term or cross reference? I'm probably not the only one who didn't know Livy by any other name. The Livy work also doesn't come up if you search "history of Rome" or "Roman history" so you would have to know his proper name and this edition's title to find that recording.

Good to know that there is some Livy out there, though, thank you!

Colleen

It was added as an alternative version, but for some reason it was not showing on searches. I think I fixed it.

[ColleenMc]

Yup, a search on Livy works now. Thanks!

Colleen

[niobium]

it is a nuisance to be looking forward to going through the full set in a series only to find they are not totally completed. There are actually a few different translated versions of Livy's history of Rome, but happens that there is a volume that has them all in one. I suppose it would be better to continue with the version that was already started some years ago here. maybe as a few more months tick by, i can contribute a little to a project, if it were given a go ahead

[Kazbek]

Since this is a large undertaking, whoever ventures to BC further volumes should take some time to research the different editions, which may differ on both objective and subjective factors: completeness of the series, accuracy, elegance of style, its intelligibility to the modern reader, legibility of the text, etc. People may disagree on which one they prefer, but all these factors deserve some consideration. Here's the opening sentence from the first volume in five different translations:

In writing the history of the Roman people, from the very foundation of the city, whether I may offer to the public a work of merit, is a question I cannot well resolve; nor if I could, would I venture to do it, sensible as I am, that it is a trite and common thing, for every new author, to imagine to himself, that he will state facts with a greater air of authenticity than his predecessors: or, by the colourings of his stile, throw a new light upon the shades of more ancient productions. (William Gordon, 1783, link above)

Whether, in tracing the series of the Roman History, from the foundation of the city, I shall employ my time to good purpose, is a question which I cannot positively determine; nor, were it possible, would I venture to pronounce such determination: for I am aware that the matter is of high antiquity, and has been already treated by many others; the latest writers always supposing themselves capable, either of throwing some new light on the subject, or, by the superiority of their talents for composition, of excelling the more inelegant writers who preceded them. (George Baker, 1823, vol 1 in our catalog)

Whether in tracing the history of the Roman people, from the foundation of the city, I shall employ myself to a useful purpose, I am neither very certain, nor, if I were, dare I say: inasmuch as I observe, that it is both an old and hackneyed practice, later authors always supposing that they will either adduce something more authentic in the facts, or, that they will excel the less polished ancients in their style of writing. (D. Spillan, 1853, at PG)

Whether the task I have undertaken of writing a complete history of the Roman people from the very commencement of its existence will reward me for the labour spent on it, I neither know for certain, nor if I did know would I venture to say. For I see that this is an old-established and a common practice, each fresh writer being invariably persuaded that he will either attain greater certainty in the materials of his narrative, or surpass the rudeness of antiquity in the excellence of his style. (Canon Roberts, 1912)

Whether I am likely to accomplish anything worthy of the labour, if I record the achievements of the Roman people from the foundation of the city, I do not really know, nor if I knew would I dare to avouch it; perceiving as I do that the theme is not only old but hackneyed, through the constant succession of new historians, who believe either that in their facts they can produce more authentic information, or that in their style they will prove better than the rude attempts of the ancients. (Benjamin Oliver Foster, 1919, Loeb edition)

And here, for easy reference, is the original Latin (or, more precisely, one PD edition thereof, since I've just noticed that there are significant differences in how this sentence appears in Latin versions as well):

facturusne operae pretium sim, si a primordio urbis res populi Romani perscripserim, nec satis scio nec, si sciam, dicere ausim, quippe qui cum veterem tum vulgatam esse rem videam, dum novi semper scriptores aut in rebus certius aliquid allaturos se aut scribendi arte rudem vetustatem superaturos credunt.

I'm not an accomplished Latinist, but after reading those translations, I'm rather blown away by the terseness and elegance of Livy's prose. I personally think that the first version is the most problematic, in part because it seems to be riddled with mistranslations, at least some of them inadvertent (e.g., Gordon apparently misreads the words "operae pretium", lit. work's value, in the opening phrase, which I think is an economic metaphor, alluding to the product being worth less than the labor). In another place, there seems to be a legitimate disagreement between translators on whether the old "thing" Livy refers to is the subject matter or the practice.

Based on just the first sentence, I would have a preference for the last two versions. Spillan tries too hard to imitate Latin syntax, to my ear, while Baker takes too many liberties to make the text conform to stylistic fashions of his day. I suspect Roberts' version may grow on me even more with time, as it might be more successful than the others in conveying the "tone" of the original.

However, it looks like Roberts' translation does not include the epitomes, while the Loeb series has contributions from multiple translators, and I'm not sure if all the volumes are in PD. This post was just an exercise to illustrate that the choice of translation can make a bit difference.

Michael

[Leni]

Thanks for this, Michael! When I set up a project that is a translation, I usually do exactly that, so your post made me smile . There are a few Latin works I would like to put up for reading here but I have not found a PD translation I considered good enough - such as Statius' Thebaid. And for LibriVox, there is an added component I think: something good to read is not necessarely good to listen to. Some translations are just not easy to listen to, and I find that important for LV. That is why I went for an almost unknown translation of The Georgics, but it sounds so much better if you don't have the text in front of you than most others. Same for Lucan and the Metamorphoses, which I also BCed.

For Livy, I had compared just Baker and Gordon. And Baker is clearly superior, for the reasons you pointed out. I really enjoy Livy's style myself. The liberties, though, I take more of a sign of the times of the translation - I find that most translations from the late 19th century are like that, which is not to our 21st century's taste in translation, but, on the other hand, thinking of someone who cannot read the Latin and just wants to listen to the book, I find sometimes forgivable.

(Just for the record, I did not BC or organize the Livy we have in the catalog, I just read sections. But Karen Merline, who was the resident Classics BC back when I joined LV, was very careful with these things, so, she probably picked Baker because it was the best she could find when she BCed the project).

[Kazbek]

Since the different volumes of Livy's work can be viewed as different "books", we don't have to use the same translation for all the volumes. Whoever takes on the next one, can make their own choice. I might have looked into BC'ing this myself, but I'm already overcommitted, and I don't think I could add Livy to my signature anyway, because it would max out the character limit.

Michael

[Kazbek]

One thing we could do is list multiple translations for Livy in the post "Multi-volume works still to be completed". I'm a bit concerned that someone will start another volume with Baker's translation just because it's listed there. Directing their attention to the other options can help them make a more deliberate choice.

Michael

[Kazbek]

I just brought up this last point in the other thread.

ETA: The listing in "Multi-volume works still to be completed" has been updated to include a link to this discussion.

[Kazbek]

Quick roundup of source locations for future reference:

• Spillan's translation at the Project Gutenberg
• Roberts' translation at Hathitrust
• Loeb Classical Library version at the Archive and at Hathitrust (the latter is more complete).

Michael

[Leni]

Just to keep the record here, I decided to start this, now that Pliny is almost over. But I will restart from Book 1, using Roberts translation, because the division of books per volume is very different - we have in the catalog just books 1 and 2, and Roberts' first volume goes up to Book 5. I shall be launching it soon.